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AIBU?

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David Badiel - Jews Don't Count. Shocked

800 replies

Everanewbie · 22/11/2022 12:28

AIBU to be disappointed and upset at the blindspot for antisemitism that was highlighted in last night's excellent documentary? The Leigh Francis part was especially revealing to me. The (quite correct) groveling apologies for the Michael Jackson, Craig David and Mel B characters were a contrast to the defining silence on the David Badiel character.

What is more, the reaction from the left-wing commentators (Owen Jones, et al) on twitter seem to suggest that Badiel says other racism doesn't exist, which feels like a deliberate and willful misrepresentation.

OP posts:
Smokebelch · 24/11/2022 10:20

@Holidayfinder (((the two or three posters)))

You have engaged in constant whataboutery and shouted down Jewish experiences of racism. You've decided for yourself what this thread should be about and have ignored the OP's thread subject, otherwise known as derailing. You may well think you're an antiracist but your posts suggest otherwise. It's you and your pal beachcitygril that are on this thread literally trolling Jewish people and making them feel uncomfortable. You have completely misrepresented Baddiel's central thesis and have basically provided his point.

Everanewbie · 24/11/2022 10:20

Holidayfinder · 24/11/2022 10:14

The thing is you can’t separate the man from the message in this instance!
Over the past few days, I have seen videos of Baddiel, abusing overweight women, jokes about starving babies, Eastern European women, abusing Roma people, and religious Jews!
He has no moral authority whatsoever and he is a crude unfunny racist himself,

My position is very clear. I abhor any form of racism against any community, but I don’t agree with Baddiel that anti semitism is not taken as seriously as other forms of racism.

I am therefore going to disagree with the whole premise of this thread, and say so, even if there are certain posters who are determined to close that conversation down.
it’s very obvious the two or three posters who are trying to police the thread, and it’s certainly not beach city girl.
.

Well, many of us can separate the man from the message. I'm sorry you can't.

You may feel that antisemitism is given the attention it deserves and that there is no blindspot. That may be true. But what I am sure about is that numerous jewish people feel that their suffering and persecution is being ignored by those who should case. Therefore, at the very least we must put ensure that mechanisms are in place that the jewish community can highlight issues where they find them and that they will be believed and not suffer the whataboutery and minilisation that the community perceives (I feel that perceived is too wooly, but i'm conceding to your point here).

OP posts:
Holidayfinder · 24/11/2022 10:23

Interestingingly, his film has come in for a lot of criticisms from Jews who think he should not have included ‘leftie’ jews like Miriam Margoyles and Stephen Fry.
The fact that they addressed the issue of Israel was not welcome.
Just proves that there is no Jewish concensus on what anti semitism is.
Would have been interesting to have someone on like Michael Rosen!
A completely different conversation would have taken place no doubt!

amcha · 24/11/2022 10:26

One thing I thought perhaps I should provide more background on - because BloodAndFire mentioned the Blood Libel - and while many may know what that is a reference to, many may not.
The blood libel was a form of conspiracy theory - and like many of the most potent conspiracy theories, it centred on children (because threats to children are, understandably, what raises the greatest emotions -and so it is most effective at by-passing the rational brain).

Under this particular conspiracy theory, Jews were accused of killing non-Jewish children - often to use their blood in some sort of imaginary Jewish ritual. Very often there really was a dead or missing child - children unfortunately die or go missing from all sorts of causes - including murder (and health and safety was not highly developed in these places)- and when there is no known culprit, people want certainty, and they want revenge, and blaming the Jews and going off and murdering Jews and burning down their houses and looting and pillaging and raping can be very attractive. As we are starting to see from the internet, it is extraordinary what people can be persuaded to believe when things aren't going so well for them - and this is in the modern era, with modern science and widespread literacy etc. (Of course to the extent there were real murderers, it is convenient if nobody investigates you because they are convinced it is the Jews).

England has the rather dubious privilege of being the first recorded blood libel - William of Norwich in 1144. The Jews of Norwich were charged with ritual murder after the body of a young boy was discovered stabbed to death in the woods. In this case, the Jews of Norwich were alleged to have "bought a Christian child [the 'boy-martyr' William] before Easter and tortured him with all the tortures wherewith our Lord was tortured, and on Long Friday hanged him on a rood in hatred of our Lord."

I confess though that while a lot of people claim this as the first blood libel - I strongly suspect this was not a first - just that England had better documentation and court systems - so we have better records of it.

Like witch hunting - where alongside the documented cases there were almost certainly very many other cases, particularly in more lawless lands, where viligante action bypassed the legal processes and hence were never formally recorded. People want someone to blame, and to be angry at, and to then act, so that they can feel safe, and they are capable of being completely irrational in so doing.

Another conspiracy theory linked to this is that of well poisoning - this was particularly prevalent in areas where the black death was - because not understanding the nature of plague and the way it spreads, conspiracy theorists look for someone to blame. And of course, the black death killed many, many people, so their were lots of people very upset and angry and irrational and desperate to do what they could to eliminate it. So killing Jews because they had poisoned the wells, causing the black death, was also widespread. (BTW Jews may have had at least a little better protection against certain plagues, because Jewish ritual does involve a lot of hand washing - including before a meal of bread - not that Jews had any more idea that this was protective against disease than anybody else).

The Jewish sense was very much of a constant threat well beyond the formally documented cases such as the blood libel of William of Norwich. Nor was this limited to Christian Europe. There are documented cases in Damascus (Syria) in 1840 and Shiraz (Iran) in 1910 - but again, this is about modern documentation, not about the Jewish sense of how often these occurred. What is notable about the two Middle Eastern cases is that, with colonisation, there was clearly a cross fertilisation of conspiracy theories.

Many of you may well know most if not all of this, but I find that not everybody does so just worth a recap.

nudnikit · 24/11/2022 10:26

readymade · 22/11/2022 13:17

Honestly what about the Palestinians? What about Palestine? Why is that forgotten, and any criticism is Anti Semitic?

Exactly the point Baddiel makes.
Any mention of anti-semitism and someone says .....'But what about the Palestinians'
And then bleats that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic which is blatantly untrue (because what they really want to do is actually be anti-semtici and they don't like being called out on it)

Lunar270 · 24/11/2022 10:27

beachcitygirl · 24/11/2022 09:48

@Everanewbie no. Your mask is slipping. You're so so determined to ignore Baddiel racism towards my community another minority that you'll forgive him anything, even that which he hasn't asked forgiveness for.

He IS the presenter of the documentary and his feelings towards Roma are evidenced & that doesn't seem to matter a jot to many. I've discussed my lived experiences of hate because of my ethnicity and that Baddiel exacerbated that.

But as long as he's saying what you want him to, none of that matters.

Can't you see how deeply deeply offensive that is.

Why is anti-semitism more important than anti-Roma racism?

Why are you all so keen to excuse his behaviour?

Neither you nor @BloodAndFire nor @Lunar270 have condemned his statements about my community or acknowledged my fears or experiences & the triggering effect of Baddiel.

Not once.

I'm genuinely sorry if this is how I've come across but it's not intentional. I cannot justify DB's comments and am sorry they've offended you. I'm not excusing his behaviour at all but just saying that his posit stands. The genocide of the Roma is also deeply upsetting, as it was for all marginalised groups that Hitler chose to eliminate i.e. anyone that wasn't the 'master race'. Do we now need to bring gays, the disabled etc. into the conversation about Jews?

Possibly too late for you but he has apologised.

www.thejc.com/news/news/david-baddiel-accused-of-hypocrisy-after-old-footage-of-gypsy-joke-surfaces-6SP2fVvPmzyjCyahghPOuq?reloadTime=1659830400011

mamacattiva · 24/11/2022 10:30

Baddiel’s argument is that there is a blind spot to antisemitism, many of us think his argument is flawed. Discrimination against Jews in UK politics was handled well - complaints were taken seriously, there was a full enquiry and party leaders and members were condemned. This same handling has not been and feels like will
never be a given for other discriminated groups, which we argue is where the true blind spot really is - we’re fair game. Why are we considered lesser mortals?

Antisemitism is racism and is an issue that must be tackled like all other forms of discrimination, but it is not more accepted, denied or forgiven. The total opposite is the truth as has been evidenced in UK politics and in popular culture.

Solidarity to everyone facing abuse, like @gailsmile I too am a visibly religious woman and have faced similar incidents from all corners of society Flowers Baddiel’s argument serves to further divide, when the opposite needs to be happening.

JackandVera · 24/11/2022 10:33

ExhaustedFlamingo · 22/11/2022 12:59

I watched it and found it really thought-provoking. I didn't agree with all the points he raised but overall, I felt as if I learnt a lot and it really made me think.

I don't know anyone who has any negative opinions about Jewish people, and I've never heard any anti-semitism in social circles, although I have heard plenty of other types of racism and friends have experienced it. So I guess I've been somewhat sheltered from the reality of antisemitism. It was really shocking.

David Baddiel was questioning why they're not treated in the same way as other ethnic minorities and I did have a thought about that. Watching the show last night, it was very clear that Jewish people all look very different. I appreciate there is a stereotypical "Jewish look" (which is the point that Baddiel was making with one of the people he interviewed and how Jewish their children look). But there was an enormously varied mix of physical characteristics among the Jewish people talking on the documentary, and I wondered whether that is part of the reason why Jewish people aren't treated as a proper identity.

Obviously I'm not saying that it's OK, but I did wonder if that was part of the reason? Maybe part of the reason why they're not seen as a true group and recognised as an ethnic minority?

Whereas all black people look the same?

nudnikit · 24/11/2022 10:33

Holidayfinder · 24/11/2022 10:14

The thing is you can’t separate the man from the message in this instance!
Over the past few days, I have seen videos of Baddiel, abusing overweight women, jokes about starving babies, Eastern European women, abusing Roma people, and religious Jews!
He has no moral authority whatsoever and he is a crude unfunny racist himself,

My position is very clear. I abhor any form of racism against any community, but I don’t agree with Baddiel that anti semitism is not taken as seriously as other forms of racism.

I am therefore going to disagree with the whole premise of this thread, and say so, even if there are certain posters who are determined to close that conversation down.
it’s very obvious the two or three posters who are trying to police the thread, and it’s certainly not beach city girl.
.

That's probably because you're not Jewish and you haven't experienced having racism against you ignored or downplayed, especially given the genocide that was committed within living memory in Europe.
Baddiel is spot on.

nudnikit · 24/11/2022 10:40

mamacattiva · 24/11/2022 10:30

Baddiel’s argument is that there is a blind spot to antisemitism, many of us think his argument is flawed. Discrimination against Jews in UK politics was handled well - complaints were taken seriously, there was a full enquiry and party leaders and members were condemned. This same handling has not been and feels like will
never be a given for other discriminated groups, which we argue is where the true blind spot really is - we’re fair game. Why are we considered lesser mortals?

Antisemitism is racism and is an issue that must be tackled like all other forms of discrimination, but it is not more accepted, denied or forgiven. The total opposite is the truth as has been evidenced in UK politics and in popular culture.

Solidarity to everyone facing abuse, like @gailsmile I too am a visibly religious woman and have faced similar incidents from all corners of society Flowers Baddiel’s argument serves to further divide, when the opposite needs to be happening.

And the reason for that was because the antisemitism in the Labour party was so blatant and in your face, it was incredibly painful to see. Of course, there are other parts of British politics where racism is apparent and includes many other groups. But the Labour Party? Supposedly the bastion of inclusivity and diversity? No other ethnic minority has been so discriminated against and abused in modern times than Jews in the Labour Party. Fucking Ken Livingstone, George Galloway, Chris Williamson and their ilk (many of whom are still in the Labour Party). No way they'd have spoken in that way about ANY other ethnic minority. The way Jewish MPs were treated. Not even going to go into the Jeremy Corbyn debate but, let's say, he felt very comfortable in their company (despite apparently fighting all racism)

CaveMum · 24/11/2022 10:45

Jason Lee on David Baddiel: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-63722482

Holidayfinder · 24/11/2022 10:56

@mamacattiva Brilliantly put!

Holidayfinder · 24/11/2022 11:01

@Smokebelch I’ve done no such thing. You’re making shit up now, because you’re getting desperate!

gruffalosbrother · 24/11/2022 11:02

Holidayfinder · 24/11/2022 10:56

@mamacattiva Brilliantly put!

No. Appalling, not at all shocking and totally incorrect. Yet again non Jews thinking they know better than Jews who, on this thread, as ever, are not allowed to say what’s antisemitic and what’s not because people who have no lived experience think they know better;

PutYourBackIntoit · 24/11/2022 11:03

Fascinating, interesting thread, and I hope it continues and attempts at purposeful derailing are not successful.

I am so sorry to read about the horrific experiences that so many of you live through.

I believe and support you, and will always call out anything I see.

I also understand to a very small degree, as I was brought up in a Kosher household, kept the Sabbath and didn't celebrate Christmas. We kept 'holy days' or 'feasts' which I knew as pentecost, passover, tabernacles, days of atonement, days of unleavened bread where my packed lunch would be jeered at for containing Matzos. My parents were part of a very very small community of christians, but because of how we lived, I was told by my classmates I was Jewish, and often told by my friends oldee brothers that I was a Jewish bitch. I cannot tell you how being called a Jewish bitch felt like a punch 10 times harder than any other slur.

I am often asked on my position on Isreal, which I can only assume is linked to my upbringing. I am learning to answer with a tilt to the head.

mamacattiva · 24/11/2022 11:05

nudnikit · 24/11/2022 10:40

And the reason for that was because the antisemitism in the Labour party was so blatant and in your face, it was incredibly painful to see. Of course, there are other parts of British politics where racism is apparent and includes many other groups. But the Labour Party? Supposedly the bastion of inclusivity and diversity? No other ethnic minority has been so discriminated against and abused in modern times than Jews in the Labour Party. Fucking Ken Livingstone, George Galloway, Chris Williamson and their ilk (many of whom are still in the Labour Party). No way they'd have spoken in that way about ANY other ethnic minority. The way Jewish MPs were treated. Not even going to go into the Jeremy Corbyn debate but, let's say, he felt very comfortable in their company (despite apparently fighting all racism)

When Muslims in the Labour Party report discrimination, they’re commonly told “it’s worse in the Conservative Party” or it’s outright denied. The Labour Party, like the Conservative Party, operates on a hierarchy of racism, and discrimination against black people and Muslims is often found at the bottom.

A leaked internal party report in 2020 found widespread discrimination against Muslims from senior officials within the party that had gone unchallenged.

Earlier that year, 29% of Muslim party members reported having experienced racism within the party, 34% of members surveyed had witnessed racism against Muslims and 44% said that the party does not take discrimination against Muslims seriously. Why isn’t it taken seriously? Are we more deserving?

But still, it’s worse in the Conservative Party 🤷‍♀️ Muslims just need to put up and shut up, despite the majority engaging in party politics through the Labour Party.

I genuinely cannot fathom (and I say this literally, not for dramatic effect) how people can say that antisemitism is ignored or downplayed given the actions taken in recent UK politics or popular culture when other forms of discrimination are not afforded the same level of condemnation.

LadyKenya · 24/11/2022 11:05

CaveMum · 24/11/2022 10:45

That was a very thoughtful interview that Jason Lee gave. Despite the immense hurt that DB actions caused him, it seems that he has forgiven him, and did accept his personal apology.

mamacattiva · 24/11/2022 11:11

gruffalosbrother · 24/11/2022 11:02

No. Appalling, not at all shocking and totally incorrect. Yet again non Jews thinking they know better than Jews who, on this thread, as ever, are not allowed to say what’s antisemitic and what’s not because people who have no lived experience think they know better;

Discriminated groups go through very similar lived experiences but the outcomes can be entirely different depending on what you’re discriminated against, which is why I argue Baddiel’s argument is flawed. I’m on this thread discussing Baddiel’s thesis and why I think it is inaccurate according to evidence in recent times, not the definitions of antisemitism.

nudnikit · 24/11/2022 11:13

@mamacattiva
I'd like to see any evidence of any public figures in the Labour party making any anti-Muslim comments a la George Galloway or Ken Livingstone and no action being taken.
But this is not a zero sum game. Recognizing the blind spot regarding Jewish discrimination does not take away from any racism suffered by any other minority. Indeed, it makes us more inclusive.
(there is a difference in that being Muslim is not a race in the way that being Jewish is but any form of discrimination, whether religious or ethnic obviously needs to be tackled)

beachcitygirl · 24/11/2022 11:13

What I will say. Is that this thread (- few eloquent & considerate posters aside & some who finally took on board my point. Thank you.

Previous to this documentary and this thread I thought david Baddiel an outlier, I did not think him typical or a spokesperson for his race. I found him an unfunny racist vulgar man.

I thought there was a kind of kinship with Roma and Jews. I thought those who had and continue to suffer such horrific discrimination by and large have empathy with my race & people of colour.

It appears I was wrong. The majority of people on this thread are happy with him as a spokesperson for their race and racism.

It's blatantly obvious that the vast majority of posters on this thread only give a shit about anti-semitism and care not a jot about anyone or anything else. Much like Baddiel and his documentary.

One poster even told a Muslim woman she had no lived experience of racism.
Another subtly suggested all blacks people look the same.

The drip drip drip of subtle hatred for other ethnic minority communities is nauseating and obvious.

What a shame the documentary and this thread has had the exact opposite of its apparent intent.

I no longer feel Baddiel an outlier in the Jewish community.

How very very sad & divisive.

nudnikit · 24/11/2022 11:16

To be honest @mamacattiva the fact that you think that there is MORE condemnation and interest in anti-semtisim than other forms of racism is quite telling. Why do you think Jews would say that this is not the case? Are we blind? Self centred? I mean, there must be a reason why so many think this is the case .

mamacattiva · 24/11/2022 11:21

nudnikit · 24/11/2022 11:16

To be honest @mamacattiva the fact that you think that there is MORE condemnation and interest in anti-semtisim than other forms of racism is quite telling. Why do you think Jews would say that this is not the case? Are we blind? Self centred? I mean, there must be a reason why so many think this is the case .

The direct comparison between the handling of antisemitism and Islamophobia within the Labour Party, and indeed the whole of politics, is a good starting point.

I’m not dismissing Jewish lived experiences, I’m dismissing Baddiel’s blanket statement.

nudnikit · 24/11/2022 11:21

@mamacattiva
You are aware that the outcome of Jewish discrimination was genocide and 6 million murdered?

mamacattiva · 24/11/2022 11:34

nudnikit · 24/11/2022 11:21

@mamacattiva
You are aware that the outcome of Jewish discrimination was genocide and 6 million murdered?

I really am trying to avoid whataboutery but there have been genocides against Muslims for simply being Muslim all throughout history, the Rohingya are still in the midst of genocide for simply being Muslim and hundreds of thousands are still trying to flee persecution and ultimate death.

I don’t wish to casually dismiss our horrific pasts, but I was referring to recent times in the UK with my argument as that is what Baddiel’s claim focuses on.

nudnikit · 24/11/2022 11:37

No @mamacattiva - many posters here (including myself) absolutely agree with what Baddiel has said. I've read the book and watched the documentary and agree 100%. Anti-semitism is accepted and tolerated in a way that no other racism is (today at least) with the victim even being blamed in many cases (well, what about the Palestinians). It's not even seen as racism (Jews aren't a race).

I'm still really interested to know why you think so many Jews agree with what Baddiel said? Are we all just so self centred and blind to any racism but our own? Or perhaps this IS our lived experience? Of being ignored and mocked when we complain? Of hearing faux compliments (Oh, you Jews you're all so clever, you stick together)? Of having to pay for our own security at Jewish schools because of genuine threats? Of being let down by the political party that was meant to be our home and was hijacked by antisemites?