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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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David Badiel - Jews Don't Count. Shocked

800 replies

Everanewbie · 22/11/2022 12:28

AIBU to be disappointed and upset at the blindspot for antisemitism that was highlighted in last night's excellent documentary? The Leigh Francis part was especially revealing to me. The (quite correct) groveling apologies for the Michael Jackson, Craig David and Mel B characters were a contrast to the defining silence on the David Badiel character.

What is more, the reaction from the left-wing commentators (Owen Jones, et al) on twitter seem to suggest that Badiel says other racism doesn't exist, which feels like a deliberate and willful misrepresentation.

OP posts:
mamacattiva · 23/11/2022 21:28

I’m not sure if your comment was directed at me @antelopevalley but I was replying to a comment insinuating that people
who support the Palestinian cause are antisemitic, I hadn’t bought it up on a thread about antisemitism. I agree with you.

antelopevalley · 23/11/2022 21:29

@mamacattiva It was not aimed at any individual. But I have seen this happening time and time again during the Corbyn leadership. Someone raises about antisemitism in Britain, and the response is what are your views on Israel. Just awful.

amcha · 23/11/2022 21:30

antelopevalley · 23/11/2022 21:22

Antisemitism in Britain is not about Israel. No discussion about antisemitism in Britain should even be discussing Israel. And Jewish people should not be asked about their views on Israel when they talk about experiences of antisemitism. It is irrelevant.

If your response to someone talking about antisemitism in Britain is to say - what about Israel, then you are being antisemitic.

This.

That is why I am on this thread trying to ignore all the posts on here about Israel.

That is one of David Baddiel's biggest arguments for why he is a good spokesperson on this issue, because he is emphatically not a Zionist, and just not interested in Israel.

So a thread that is focussed on the issues raised by David Baddiel should have nothing to do with Israel.

Classica · 23/11/2022 21:31

Your post makes for sobering reading, @gailsmile. I'm sorry those things have happened to you. It's depressing you can list so many instances of abuse that you've personally suffered.

mamacattiva · 23/11/2022 21:40

antelopevalley · 23/11/2022 21:29

@mamacattiva It was not aimed at any individual. But I have seen this happening time and time again during the Corbyn leadership. Someone raises about antisemitism in Britain, and the response is what are your views on Israel. Just awful.

I agree that does happen, but I think it’s more common to be labelled antisemitic if you support Palestine imo. I think people are more educated on the issues these days and can distinguish between Jews and Israel and don’t conflate the two when discussing antisemitism, but some still see the support of Palestinians as a hatred of Jews despite there being an obvious reason for said support (the West’s full support of an apartheid state rather than condemnation/action against).

BloodAndFire · 23/11/2022 21:40

amcha · 23/11/2022 21:30

This.

That is why I am on this thread trying to ignore all the posts on here about Israel.

That is one of David Baddiel's biggest arguments for why he is a good spokesperson on this issue, because he is emphatically not a Zionist, and just not interested in Israel.

So a thread that is focussed on the issues raised by David Baddiel should have nothing to do with Israel.

You're right and I'm sorry for rising to the bait. The truth is that the same lies that were spread about Jews in the Middle Ages in relation to the plague or moneylending, and in the 19th century in relation to Communism or Bolshevism (or capitalism/imperialism depending on your political position), and in the Spanish Inquisition in relation to 'Christ killers' etc. are today used in relation to Israel.

the blood libel, for example.

you're right that it is better to try to keep the discussion separate. For example, I've never even been to Israel, yet I've experienced a lifetime of antisemitism in the UK. However, it's also true that the same antisemitic tropes raise their heads over and over again.

The idea that Jews are 'aliens', 'fifth columnists', secretly 'pulling the strings' of governments around the world and causing/controlling wars goes back for many centuries. indeed it was one of the central arguments of the book for which Jeremy Corbyn wrote a glowing foreword of unstinting praise.

It's depressing that so many people still fall for it hook, line and sinker. but i suppose it's always nice to have a scapegoat.

BloodAndFire · 23/11/2022 21:42

mamacattiva · 23/11/2022 21:40

I agree that does happen, but I think it’s more common to be labelled antisemitic if you support Palestine imo. I think people are more educated on the issues these days and can distinguish between Jews and Israel and don’t conflate the two when discussing antisemitism, but some still see the support of Palestinians as a hatred of Jews despite there being an obvious reason for said support (the West’s full support of an apartheid state rather than condemnation/action against).

Israel is not 'an apartheid state', by the way. This is one of the biggest and most reprehensible lies spread by antisemites, who are determined to make the world's only Jewish country and all of its citizens (i.e. a significant proportion of the world's Jews) pariahs.

www.nytimes.com/2017/03/31/opinion/why-israel-is-nothing-like-apartheid-south-africa.html

CPL593H · 23/11/2022 21:49

I'm a WASP. I'm about as WASP as it is possible to be, but I have studied the history of antisemitism, the patterns throughout history, the blood libel which is still raising its unbelievably ugly head. It never, ever goes away and it has nothing at all to do with Israel, or the Palestinians, or however anyone feels about that situation at any given time. It is always there. Even what we know about the Holocaust, which should have the end of this terrible road, has not made it go away.

During a university lecture, hearing one particularly appalling thing among legion, I made a vow that I would call out antisemitism whenever I heard it. I think that perhaps is the start for all of us. Every time, like racism is rightfully called out.

mamacattiva · 23/11/2022 21:50

BloodAndFire · 23/11/2022 21:42

Israel is not 'an apartheid state', by the way. This is one of the biggest and most reprehensible lies spread by antisemites, who are determined to make the world's only Jewish country and all of its citizens (i.e. a significant proportion of the world's Jews) pariahs.

www.nytimes.com/2017/03/31/opinion/why-israel-is-nothing-like-apartheid-south-africa.html

As interesting as that NY Times article
is, I think I’ll stick with Amnesty International reports and the South African foreign minister’s opinion (based on lived experiences):

www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/7/26/south-africa-calls-for-israels-proscription-as-apartheid-state

Holidayfinder · 23/11/2022 21:52

@mamacattiva Yes, me too!

HermioneWeasley · 23/11/2022 21:53

Amnesty International who said the Ukrainians are as bad as the Russians for defending themselves? I think I’ll pass on their opinion.

BloodAndFire · 23/11/2022 21:56

HermioneWeasley · 23/11/2022 21:53

Amnesty International who said the Ukrainians are as bad as the Russians for defending themselves? I think I’ll pass on their opinion.

It's shocking what has happened to Amnesty in recent years. The Benensons are family friends and I think Peter would be turning in his grave.

ScribblingPixie · 23/11/2022 21:57

I'm really sorry to hear about your experiences, @gailsmile. I'm scared to ask if it's getting better or worse.

mamacattiva · 23/11/2022 21:58

Amnesty International suggested that Ukraine had endangered further lives by building bases and firing weapons from heavily populated areas and thus making them a target, not that they were on par with Russia.

EHopes · 23/11/2022 22:00

As a Jew access to left wing spaces is via a gatekeeper. We are always, ALWAYS, asked to state a position on Israel before we are welcome. Whether it's a feminist group or a local environmental group or whatever.

Our schools have security at a level that is unimaginable to most people. I have one child at an Anglican school and the difference between the lack of security concerns there compared to the Jewish schools attended by her siblings - it's night and day.

People regularly seem shocked that they are called out for antisemitic language and behaviour.

They call it the oldest hatred. Maybe it is.

As some seem not to understand

  • Judaism is a religion
  • Judaism is a culture
  • Jews are a racial/ethnic group
  • we have our own parallel history
  • we have our own legal systems
  • we have our own body of literature in languages that are uniquely ours.

I have a child at a secular, explicitly atheist, Jewish school. It is culturally extremely Jewish but no prayers, no spirituality, no mention of a god is in the curriculum.

The vast majority of Jews worldwide are Zionist when the definition is brought down to the basic ' does the state of Israel have a right to exist?' Many of us have family ties to the country. This doesn't mean we are all behind everything done in the name of the state. Even if it did the constant questioning of our loyalty to the countries we are citizens in and ability to engage in any political/community discussions would be unacceptable. But it's not about Israel. The Dreyfus affair made that clear (France. Last century)

Every Jewish person I know has experience of antisemitism.

In order to give our children literacy in our culture we send them to learn at Jewish schools or outside school programs. It's impossible to give everything at home.

The fact that so many people are scared to have the fact they are Jewish known, hide it from their children, discourage their children from sharing - why is anyone ok seeing people state this over and over again and yet still argue that antisemitism isn't a real thing?

My grandmother grew up in Hounslow in the 30s. She was the only 'foreign' child at her school despite both parents having been in the country since they were babies. When evacuated with her school she was the last chosen and subjected to massive abuse due to being and LOOKING Jewish.

My grandfather was evacuated to wales - where he caused great disappointment by not having horns.

Here in Aus we use the term CALD - culturally and linguistically diverse. As a Jew I'm not expected to tick that box.

Baddiel's book is balanced, I have yet to see the show. Based on this thread it was needed. I hope that more programming is created to make it easier for others to see and call out the casual but very deeply rooted antisemitic beliefs held by so many.

Another book I highly recommend if anyone is interested in another view is Dara Horn 'people love dead Jews'.

Just this year some children's bodies found in a well in York were identified as Jewish victims of the pogrom/massacre there. Comment threads showed that many aren't sad that York hasn't had a visible community since then, over 900 years ago.

MissHavershamReturns · 23/11/2022 22:02

@gailsmile I’m so very sorry to hear that.

Onceuponatimethen · 23/11/2022 22:06

@EHopes I know exactly what you mean about hiding away heritage. I have that choice as I’m white-passing where my mother isn’t.

I’ve had some really disappointing reactions when I have mentioned it. Eg lectures about Israel and also someone (white museum curator with a PhD mid 30s) took it upon herself to tell me that the Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves to an extent, which was particularly upsetting. My mother lost most of her extended family.

gailsmile · 23/11/2022 22:14

Thank you @Classica and @MissHavershamReturns

My motive in posting is not so much for sympathy but to bring awareness to the prevalence of antisemitism and the importance of speaking up.

ToWhitToWhoo · 23/11/2022 22:17

I don't think David Baddiel is saying that antisemitism is worse or more prevalent than any other sort of racism. Just that it's often ignored, and even many people who consider themselves as anti-racist don't view antisemitism as a form of racism.

Antisemitism certainly doesn't seem likely to go away any time soon (sigh) and conspiracy theories of both far right and far left usually end up featuring it somewhere.

EHopes · 23/11/2022 22:19

@Onceuponatimethen
Yes. The moment someone finds out you are Jewish and there is that weird conversation switch that is somehow about blaming 'Jews' for something. Often our own oppression.

I'm sorry you've had that.

Notwavingbutsignalling · 23/11/2022 22:20

I would really love to do something that showed the Jewish community here that people hear them.

What could we do?

MissHavershamReturns · 23/11/2022 22:23

@gailsmile I absolutely knew that but also just didn’t want you not to know I and others care.

gailsmile · 23/11/2022 22:27

@Notwavingbutsignalling

I think the way to show support is as with any form of racism, to educate yourself, raise awareness and call it out when you see it.

I'm curious, for those here who consider hiding their Jewishness to avoid antisemitism, although I fully understand the fear, don't you feel that is giving in to the antisemitism and allowing them to be victorious?

beachcitygirl · 23/11/2022 22:27

I would hope we could all agree that NO racist or bigot of any kind should be feted & celebrated the way Baddiel is.

Him being the face of this is deliberately obtuse & offensive.

He shouldn't be allowed anywhere near television.

gailsmile · 23/11/2022 22:28

MissHavershamReturns · 23/11/2022 22:23

@gailsmile I absolutely knew that but also just didn’t want you not to know I and others care.

Thank you