David Badiel - Jews Don't Count. Shocked

[Everanewbie]

AIBU to be disappointed and upset at the blindspot for antisemitism that was highlighted in last night's excellent documentary? The Leigh Francis part was especially revealing to me. The (quite correct) groveling apologies for the Michael Jackson, Craig David and Mel B characters were a contrast to the defining silence on the David Badiel character.

What is more, the reaction from the left-wing commentators (Owen Jones, et al) on twitter seem to suggest that Badiel says other racism doesn't exist, which feels like a deliberate and willful misrepresentation.

You should definitely do the dna tests. Now is a good time to buy them as they're all offering 'black friday' deals.

I have similar colouring to your husband and son.

Thanks for taking the time to read the thread and for being open minded and wanting to connect and learn. People like you and several other posters on this thread give me some hope (as much as several of the others make me despair!)

If that is happening, then of course that is not acceptable either.

BTW message on my parent's Whatsapp group this morning:
"My (non-Jewish) colleague witnessed and stood up to anti-Semitic abuse shouted at two [Jewish school redacted] boys (aged around 11, but could be a couple of years either way) this afternoon on [bus in London].

He went ot the bus driver who said he couldn't do anything, then went back upstairs himself and told the young group of kids (approx age 16) shouting the abuse to get off the bus, I have a lot of respect for my colleague who put himself at risk to stick up for the Jewish boys, especially not being Jewish himself, and thought it would be nice to show an appreciation of some sort.

If it was your child on the bus, or who know who it was, please send me a message TIA"

Not my DC, but it does happen all the time (well the standing up for them doesn't unfortunately - that is really nice and heatwarming, but does feel rare, and I do hope the colleague is acknowledged as it is much appreciated by all). They did add "Edit: this has already been reported to police and CST, and the school will be informed".

I wonder whether the colleague was inspired by David Badiel's show and the awareness given to the issue.

Azeem Rafiq's attempts to build bridges with the Jewish community, and the reciprocal welcome and forgiveness he's been shown, is really positive. I wish there was more of that

No one Jewish has said that he should never be listened to again or that his own experiences of racism should be dismissed because of his past antisemitism.

He said he knew nothing about the Holocaust

"I've had a lot of people across different organisations," he says, listing several of those to have reached out from the community since last autumn. And Rafiq is fervent in his gratitude to the many Jewish people who forgave him for his anti-Semitic slurs and accepted his mea culpa.

As it was put at the time by Marie van der Zyl, president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews: "Azeem Rafiq has suffered terribly at the hands of racists in cricket, so he will well understand the hurt this exchange will cause to Jews who have supported him. His apology certainly seems heartfelt, and we have no reason to believe he is not completely sincere."

No one rejected him, insulted him or said he had forever lost the chance to speak out. Instead he has been given the opportunity to learn, to connect with Jewish people and had a platform to speak. It's a very positive story in the end.

www.thecricketer.com/Topics/features/the_education_of_azeem_rafiq_interview_judaism_antisemitism.html

It's happened approximately 400 times in this thread alone.

@LadyKenya Look at the responses on his Twitter feed and of those who have supported him, his book and programme. It is happening. It's been happening on this thread too. It's a shame people can't see past the fact it's him presenting rather than what it's really about - the experience of British Jews. So for that reason I agree with you that it was problematic that it was DB's programme

@BloodAndFire thanks for this. I am glad that Rafiq was able to build bridges and that his own stupid mistakes haven't invalidated the issues raised.

Those people who would prefer to bury their heads in the sand about antisemitism use DB's past as a stick to beat him with and a tool to avoid engaging with the issues he raises.

Thanks. I wasn't mentioning my experience as any kind of whataboutery but just that I can relate to some extent. There may well be parallels as some minorities seem 'fair game'. But at the same time I recognise my relative privilege as East Asians can have it slightly easier than some.

As per my colleague I can't imagine what it's like to feel unsettled in your own home/country. You've every right to be here and to feel safe, secure and 100% part of the fabric. Something is seriously awry when people are talking about packing their bags.

Do you know if Labour are doing anything to clean up their act or if it's so systemic that a leopard won't change its spots? This must be like music to Tory ears as we need to get rid but not when the opposition aren't vote worthy.

Is there even any point in writing to my MP?

IF that is happening 🙄
Very ignorant.

😱

It didn't read like whataboutery at all, don't worry. I think there is loads of subtle and not so subtle racism towards East Asians.

If corbyn had won I would have been making plans to emigrate, not just because he and his followers are so awful, but because of what it would have meant - that Britain as a whole was happy to elect an openly antisemitic pm.

Conversely, the fact he lost so badly gives me some hope, even if it wasn't necessarily about antisemitism for everyone.

The question about Labour is really tough. My husband rejoined as a member when Starmer became leader - I haven't yet. I live in a tory constituency but our next lab candidate is Jewish - last time round I was able to vote for Luciana berger as a lib dem after her appalling treatment by Labour.

I think it really depends on who your mp is. Starmer himself I believe is not at all antisemitic, nor are many other mps, but I know some people can't forgive them for campaigning to make corbyn pm.

I think that antisemitism is probably more embedded, intense and difficult to change at a constituency party level, rather than in Parliament. The most extreme, open antisemites I've met have been local activists- momentum/jvl types.

it was his programme as he's the one who stood up and wrote the book in the first place, it was based on his book. he wasn't going to let anyone else do it

I was devastated as well when the exit poll came out, and not for the same reasons as the PP! Knowing that Labour had lost the election, and we had another four years of the tories was fucking scary.
All because of spurious claims against Corbyn, aided and abetted by the Tory press and the Tory lites in the Labour Party.
There are plenty of Jews who said that Cronyn didn’t have an anti semitic bone in his body, but they were told to shut up!!

I'm just catching up with the thread and wanted to address this as it's my post you quoted.

I seriously was surprised upon reading that Jewish schools in this country have high security, especially as the poster mentioned it was in my part of the U.K.

The poster who commented on security at her dd's school then came back with a good explanation which I thanked her for (I had thought she meant there had been attacks on her dd's specific school).

It is hard sometimes on MN to ask a genuine question without seeming like you are being goady (especially to people who have experienced negativity bc they are Jewish!) I am white and don't know any Jewish people personally so it isn't something that has ever occurred to me (the need for high security in Jewish schools in the U.K.)

You shouldn't assume that everyone has some kind of nasty ulterior motive when asking a genuine question - this is the attitude that makes people scared to ask anything and leads to more divide and ignorance between different cultures. My original comment was not in any way meant to be disingenuous.

@Lunar270 You're obviously not obliged to respond but I'm genuinely interested in understanding why antisemitism is so rife, as you say .

I think to really understand you have to first understand the history of Europe. In Europe Jews were the first and for many, many years virtually the only identified minority (in some places there were also Roma (Gypsies) - who were also badly persecuted - including by Hitler).

And in the feudal society that made up Europe - there were the wealthy landed aristocrats, and the poor serfs who worked their land - and then there were the Jews - who were generally not allowed to own land or work it. In addition, the Church forbad Christians to lend money at interest. However the reality of the world is that economies struggle to run if there is no borrowing (the UK government could not continue to fund most of its services, for a start, and most of you who own houses, would not do so if there were no mortgages). So one of the relatively few "jobs" that Jews were allowed to do was to deal with/lend money (there were others, such as shopkeepers and tailors and innkeepers - so long as they didn't own the inn or similar). So while not all Jews were bankers/money lenders - the Christian Church required that all bankers/money lenders be Jewish. This was also great for the aristocracy - because if they borrowed money and squandered it (the serfs were too poor to borrow money), they could always arrange a pogrom, get the Church to whip up the emotions of the serfs in Church about the wicked Jews who killed Jesus - allow them to go murder a few, step in heroically and kick all the Jews out of the local area - and as part of that, it meant they never had to repay their loan, as all the Jews were gone (also focussing the serfs anger at their lot on the Jews and then allowing pogroms meant the aristocracy was not touched). And the Jews would need to move to the next kingdom, where they would have to set up again (the shopkeepers, tailors etc and the money lenders). But of course the feudal society couldn't survive without Jews without generating a middle class that would threaten the aristocracy - and because they couldn't get a loan anywhere etc, so in a few years they would start inviting the Jews who had been kicked out of a back.
Once the limitations on non-Jews engaging in money lending and getting into commerce were relaxed - eg Venice - the new non-Jewish middle class made sure there was no competition by locking up the Jews in the ghetto (the Venice ghetto was the very first of these). This was the history of Europe for at least 600-800 years (more in eastern Europe, where feudalism continued for longer). In England of course, Jews were thrown out in the 12th century - one of the reasons almost certainly that England developed its own, properly protected, commercial and financial sector - because you couldn't treat Christian Englishmen like you treated Jews.
That is, unfortunately, the history of Jew hatred in Europe (Jew hatred is a better term than anti-semitism, which was coined because it sounded nicer and less direct). And it is a long, long history - which culminated in the holocaust, but didn't start there - the holocaust didn't come out of nowhere.

His apology for this was a part of this documentary and he met the footballer on screen . He also issued a statement on monday

To also be fair - one needs to chronicle the history of anti-semitism under the Muslims, the above is talking about Christian Europe. Unlike in Europe, where the Jews were just about the only non Christian religion that a local would ever come across, and the only other ethnicity (except for Roma) - in Muslim lands, there were both Christians and Jews. And both Christians and Jews were "tolerated" religions (unlike pagans and others who were wiped out or forced to convert) - although usually the were penal taxes that had to be paid for being either a Christian or Jew - and there was a definite understanding that Christians and Jews held on to inferior religions making them second class citizens. But there were periods where both Christians and Jews were well tolerated - and they were able to rise to high positions within governments etc. Mostly the better periods were under the more successful rulers - and particularly the ones that were also particularly cultured, while there was worse persecution in places and and at times when in general the society was not doing that well (eg once the Turkish empire started dying) when things weren't so good for the locals, so they would take that out on the inferior citizens.
Within that - there were several reasons that Christians were better tolerated than Jews. Firstly, the view was that Islam was the culmination and that the Jewish and Christian religions were good attempts but didn't quite get it right. As Judaism is older than Christianity there was a sense that Christians were better than Jews, with Muslims then better than Christians. Secondly, Christians had crusaders (and potentially other powerful Europeans), that might come and protect them, whereas the Jews had no protection from pogram. So if you want to go out and bash up a minority, the Jews tended to be the better bet.
In some places there were more restrictions on Jews than others (I think Yemen was particularly noted as a place where Jews were restricted in terms of what they could do). In some places Jews weren't allowed to walk on the pavement if a Muslim was on it etc etc. But other places were better and Jews were tolerated so long as they acknowledged their position as second class citizens.

amcha excellent post. Thank you.

Far too few people know about Jewish history and not knowing means history keeps repeating itself. 100 years ago the mistakes made by politicians after the First World War led to the Weimar Republic in Germany, high inflation and the rise of Fascism. We all know where that led to.

I am Jewish and have called antisemitism and antizionism Jew hatred for some time now. Let's call it was it really is.

@cyclamenqueen yeah 25 years after the event! He said that he felt it was wrong after he began to experience revise himself!!
What a twat!!

i get that and I'm not excusing him but at least he has now done it

Corbyn has clearly showed how he feels about Jewish people many times.

The same can be said of other well-known still Labour politicians like Sadiq Khan.

Though in their case it is their actions and not their lack of actions, like Corbyn, that shows how they feel about Jewish people.

Whoputtheramintheramalamadingdong, To be fair, your question did come across as ambivalent in intent - speaking as a non-Jew I read it and thought 'hmmm'. I think it's a good idea to be sensitive to the attitudes Jewish people have to endure and make it clear that you are supportive. I don't think it's helpful to tell Jewish people how they should or shouldn't feel or respond when discussing antisemitism.

@cyclamenqueen he may well be a twat, but that doesn't render the message in his book/documentary incorrect, as much as "some" might hope!
Azeem Rafiq message about racist behaviour towards him was still valid after his Semitic tweets/comments.

@cyclamenqueen sorry meant for @Holidayfinder not you!