David Badiel - Jews Don't Count. Shocked

[Everanewbie]

AIBU to be disappointed and upset at the blindspot for antisemitism that was highlighted in last night's excellent documentary? The Leigh Francis part was especially revealing to me. The (quite correct) groveling apologies for the Michael Jackson, Craig David and Mel B characters were a contrast to the defining silence on the David Badiel character.

What is more, the reaction from the left-wing commentators (Owen Jones, et al) on twitter seem to suggest that Badiel says other racism doesn't exist, which feels like a deliberate and willful misrepresentation.

<high fives fellow taskmaster fan>

I didn't actually say muslims, @LisaJool I said muslim extremists. Which is quite different.
Security was massively increased in 2012 following the shooting at a Jewish school in Toulouse, France
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse_and_Montauban_shootings
Where the motive was extreme Islamic beliefs.
Some of this security was actually funded by the UK government who felt there was a serious threat to Jewish lives.

Thank you so much for that, on so many levels. It really genuinely means so much that people like you (without a direct self-interested reason to care, other than decency and humanity) recognised it for what it was and acted on it.

Honestly, it is difficult for me to put into words how much that means to me. 💜

Yes, antisemitism became absolutely open, normalised, encouraged. I was raised by leftie parents so I knew that there was always an element of antisemitism, but pre-corbyn it was very fringe and certainly never enough to stop any of my family or Jewish friends voting and being members of Labour.

2015-19 really changed all that. It changed everything for me. I saw images and heard statements that I (naively perhaps) had never imagined I'd hear from apparently left-wing, decent people who wanted a better world. It made me realise that jew-hatred is so embedded and is so very easy to tap into.

and that yes, it extends to me and to my very young children, not for anything we've ever done or said, but just because of who we are, and that when it comes down to it,a lot of people I thought were 'on my side' will sit back with blank eyes and let it happen.

You're welcome. I think it's very easy to distinguish between people who are asking questions because they genuinely want to understand more about something, and people who are posing disingenuous questions in order to undermine/insult/imply something. Yours was obviously the first type 😊

think it's very easy to distinguish between people who are asking questions because they genuinely want to understand more about something, and people who are posing disingenuous questions in order to undermine/insult/imply something.

@BloodAndFire Ah, am just sorry you had to go through that. I find your quote above very interesting because it took me a while to cotton onto what was going on (have actually seen examples in this thread). So, there's a group of very online lefties and - unfortunately I saw a friend do this - they send very sarcastic tweets to Jewish people who have said they have experienced antisemitism, and the response is along the lines of "can you provide examples of that? No thought not" or "please provide evidence for your claim". At first I thought these posts were genuine, but the more I saw it, the more obvious it was that it was some kind of passive aggressive tactic. Because the simple fact is, these same people don't demand proof from other minority groups who have also experienced discrimination.

It's fucking revolting and is pure racism, just not as explicit as what you would expect from extreme right wing groups (but just as harmful I would imagine). And I think whether or not people like/dislike Badiel is totally irrelevant (yes, he made racists comments in the past) because the programme wasn't really about him per se, it was about the experience of British Jews. I found Neil Gaiman's interview quite moving - he seemed to be on the verge of tears.

I find it really interesting and will take the time to read full thread over the next few days.

It was always of interest to me because my family descended from Islay and our passed down family lore is that we came from one of the knights Templar who fled. Local folklore is that they built many structures and organisations in Islay including our round church in Bowmore (the only fully circular church in Scotland). My grandfather became a grand mason on the grand lodge of Islay which was said to have been formed out of Templar traditions and he was very proud of the Templar ethos of protecting those who were discriminated against and helping those in the community. I don’t fully know the Templar/Jew history but from what I have been told they are very linked.

And recently I have had a son who has jewish roots of unknown origin. My partners grandma came over during the war as a very small child separated from parents, from we think somewhere in Eastern Europe as the food she remembers seems to be similar to the region. And when we visited Hungary he
liked very similar in colouring. White skin which tans quickly, jet black hair and jet black eyes. My beautiful baby boy was born with those eyes and they are beautiful!

We really should do a dna test to see if we can pin any of this down. It’s all very interesting and I have always thought there’s a bit of Jew in me and a lot in DP.

Sorry above was to @BloodAndFire

Race is a human invented classification. It’s not a biological fact. Among Jewish people there are people of different races. Ignoring that erases the diversity in Jewish communities

Sorry my comment wasn’t for you

I've a few Jewish colleagues. Some time ago, when antisemitism was prominent in the news (more than usual by the sound of it), I made a point of showing solidarity with him and voicing my support. He literally broke down in tears and I'm beginning to realise why. However I've never had the opportunity to ask him why Jews are hated so much. I'm a minority but genuinely don't understand as I'm so far removed from it.

You're obviously not obliged to respond but I'm genuinely interested in understanding why antisemitism is so rife, as you say . I know there are some hideous goons on MN but had no idea.

I'm genuinely sorry. An an East Asian I'm used to racism being acceptable. It's still ok to make racist comments to east Asians and violence against us is not really taken seriously so can relate to some extent. Not entirely but at a basic level.

@Lunar270 I've learned quite a lot over the last few years through one of my friends who is Jewish and who explained to me, for instance, why some Jewish people were saying they "had their suitcases packed". At first that sounded ludicrous to me, in 21st century Britain but when she explained it - antisemitism in its historical context - it totally made sense. There was genuine fear. I think a lot of it has resurfaced in the last few years simply because people were looking for someone to blame for Corbyn losing - apparently it's the Jews (or the coded 'Zios') fault! But there's also this whole 'punching up' narrative. The common trope that Jews are seen as wealthy, which therefore plays into globalist conspiracy theories, generally a far right conspiracy but the left feeds off it too because it's anti capitalist. I'm probably not explaining it well but trying to understand it more! Sorry you also have to deal with it as an East Asian.

Thanks @danceyourselfdizzy1

What I have to deal with is a drop in the ocean by the sound of it and have suspected as much from the news. The CH4 program last night was very enlightening and informative but I only tuned in half way through and may have missed any historical context. I might go back and watch from the start.

Many races/minorities are othered so get that but it seems like another level with antisemitism. Unfortunately most of the time, us minorities try to navigate our lives as best we can and sometimes in a kind of tunnel vision because we're negotiating our own issues. That was one of the takeaways from the program and am totally guilty of not giving it the attention it deserves and for thinking Jews are moneyed. It's a lazy stereotype like crazy rich Asians but is amazing how powerful these things are when you don't know many Jews.

@Lunar270I think ultimately it's as you say, it's othering and there's a lazy 'rich jew' trope which feeds into a belief that rich people can't be oppressed and so therefore, on the left at least, Jewish people are accused of lying, because their argument is that antisemitism can't exist because...they're wealthy so must be an oppressor? I might be wrong on this and someone Jewish might be able to explain this better if I'm right.

There's actually a comment on here about how Jews are overrepresented (I think academia was the example) which is the same kind of bullshit trope. Often these people qualify their argument with something along the lines of 'of course antisemitism is abhorrent and we must challenge it when we see it'. Or they can't actually just say 'we must fight antisemitism' without adding on 'and all forms of racism'. So these same people, on the left, when they say 'we must fight Islamophobia' don't likewise end with 'and all forms of racism'. Because Islamophobia stands up on it's own as an actual racism (which it is) whereas antisemitism doesn't? I think that's what Baddiel's point was.

So it seems to me, at least as a bystander, that a lot of these people are basically just racists that like to take a pop at Jews, downplay their experiences of antisemitism and generally just make out they're shadowy liars and demand proof of the antisemitism. As a former Labour member (on the left of the party) that was involved in a local CLP and was quite active on social media, it was such a hideous eye opener for me.

She was saying Jewish actresses don’t play get to play leading Jewish women…And naming two leading ladies out of the hundreds of non Jews

You clearly missed the part of the programme where she was discussing the types of roles that Jewish actresses get cast in, which is the part I was referring to. And you missed the part of the thread where loads of other names were mentioned - I don’t think anyone keeps a spreadsheet or anything but the idea that Jewish actresses are underrepresented among Hollywood leading ladies is a tough sell.

Yep, nobody was ever able to point out a single thing that Corbin said that was anti semitic,- because he wasn’t!

David Baddiel on the other hand is a racist!

@Holidayfinder "nobody" is quite the reach. Plenty of examples if you look for it but here's one - Zionists are unable to understand English irony despite having lived here a long time. [Zionists on the left is code for Jews, because as I'm sure you are aware a majority of British Jews count themselves as Zionists in the real definition of the word, but you'll predictably probably try and split hairs over that]. Also, are you quite happy to ignore the fact that Corbyn was perfectly happy to surround himself with some of the most notorious antisemites and holocaust deniers (proper 'death to Jews types')? He counts them as his friends. He wrote the foreword to a book that is infamous for its liberal use of anti-Jewish tropes. It's just baffling the lengths people will go to to try and deny this. You're part of the problem mate.

Neil Gaiman was great, as was Miriam Margoyles!
I thought David swimmer made some decent points, but Sarah Silverman is whiny and extremely irritating!

And being critical of the actions of the Israeli government does not equate to being antisemitic.

So @Holidayfinder , because DB did and/or said something racist in the past, we should disregard everything he says and dismiss any cause that he backs? Do you hold other individuals and issues to these standards? Or only the causes that a particular tribal allegiance backs?

Almost as sad to me as the issues raised in the book/documentary was the predictable reaction from the usual suspects, e.g. Ash Sarkar and Owen Jones. Rather than accept the documentary participants "truth" as they would for any other minority highlighting discrimination and hate, they decide to attack DB for past indiscretions, deliberately and willfully mislead on what the documentary stated, alleging DB states jews suffer greater than blacks.

No, but insisting that a jew has an opinion on Israel, or holding Israel to higher standards than other countries is.

Yep.

To add to all this - he actually said zionists couldn't understand English irony despite having lived here all their lives - not just a long time - making it crystal clear Jews will never be 'really' English, like Jeremy and his lovely brother Piers.

He campaigned for the early release of the terrorists who bombed a Jewish community centre in finchley.

The foreword you correctly mention - he said that it was a brilliant and perceptive analysis of history - the book says the Jews deliberately caused all world wars (one of the oldest antisemitic tropes)

He wanted to 'give tea on the terrace of the house of commons' to Raed Salah who has openly declared death to the Jews and spread the blood libel.

He was silent and refused to help the Jewish mps Luciana berger and Margaret hodge when they directly approached and asked for his help when they were subject to vicious antisemitic abuse within the Labour Party.

It's all in the ehrc report and there's loads more. And he eventually lost the Labour whip because even when the report was published , he simply blamed it on the Jews again.

Multiple non Jewish posters in this thread have shared their first hand experiences of horrifying, open antisemitism in constituency Labour parties.

There is so, so much evidence and it's all been in the public domain for a long time now.

Anyone still denying it at this point is an outright liar and a supporter of racism.

I'm posting this stuff not for the racist corbynite you were replying to, but for other, decent people reading the thread who might really not know this stuff.

As we've seen in this thread though, corbyn is just an unpleasant symptom and representative of a particular type of white European antisemitism that runs very very very deep and is very old

This is always going to be a bit problematic for DB. His racist actions are not going to suddenly be forgotten because he has a point to make.

I'm sorry for the racism you and your community experience. I can tell you that if I had been your colleague at that time, I'd probably have responded just like he did. It was such a kind and important thing you did.

The 2019 election campaign was the worst thing I have ever experienced in terms of being Jewish in the UK. I lost a lot of friends/colleagues and there are some who I'm back on friendly terms with, but I will never feel the same about them again because I know that when the chips are down , they'll turn their backs and let us be sacrificed.

Almost none (not quite none) of my non Jewish friends and colleagues showed solidarity and offered support. Those who did, I will always be so deeply grateful to

(Funnily enough, one of them is half Chinese herself. I wonder if there are some parallels in the experiences of our communities that meant she and you showed us that support and comfort when so many others turned their backs)

When the exit poll came out on the evening of the 2019 election and I knew corbyn would not be prime minister, I just started crying and crying and crying. I had no idea until then how much pent up terror and grief and fear had built up. I never cry usually.
Thank you again for your solidarity and your humanity xxx

@LadyKenya Yes it probably is. But on the flipside, the same people repeatedly bringing up his racist incident in the 90s are the same people that are willing to downplay or deny horrendous instances of antisemitism over the last few years. Because that in itself is racist. Can't have it both ways!

@LadyKenya maybe Azeem Rafiq should have kept quiet about the racism he suffered in cricket because of his antisemitic tweets and comments?

Not that it is ok, but DB's actions were a long time ago, in a very different era. We have all now had the opportunity to have a better understanding of racism and the effect our behaviour can have. DB has also apologised.