How many more women are going to find themselves in this situation ?

[sofrustratedbylackofknowledge]

Thread borne by the sheer amount of posts this week alone, of women who have moved in with wealthier men . Men who own houses solely in their name.. and women who have children with them without a contract of marriage or civil partnership..

The relationship breaks down and the woman is either not working or massively economically disadvantaged compared with their partners .

Made even worst by the courts bias towards shared care rendering CM almost negligible...

Why are women putting themselves in this situation. ?

Marriage has a lot of patriarchal connotations which are 'no go' for some women... but now we have civil partnerships why would you not go for this option .. ? Or is it the man refusing to commit ?

Also really concerned about the massive number of contraception failures . So many women taking the pill finding themselves pregnant and deciding to continue the pregnancy with no legal protection ..is the pill /implant failing ?

But then we’re falling down the Incel rabbit hole. They only want to breed with what they consider to be high value women. Presumably that’s good looking healthy intelligent I suppose is a bonus but not necessarily.

Women aren’t children that need protecting from bad decisions they choose to make. If the security of marriage is important to you, then get married. If a man doesn’t want to marry you then leave him. It may not be what you want to do, but that doesn’t negate your agency.

Someone can making a bad choice does not mean they were manipulated into doing so, or that they’re not ultimately responsible for their own actions.

I'm guessing WC women need IVF a lot less then MC women because they reproduce younger.

I wonder why WC women have children earlier? Do WC men commit earlier?

@ZeldaWillTellYourFortune

Wtf?

I suspect it's because it's the norm for those from middle class families to go to university, to develop a career, to want to spend 5-10 years minimum working in that career before thinking about children. So as a very rough guide many of those don't even start thinking about a family till they reach their early 30s.

Very different for those from poorer/WC backgrounds for whom it is far more the norm to have DC in their late teens or early twenties. Nothing to do with men committing, more that it's just considered normal in their social circle, and they are more likely to think in terms of hand-to-mouth jobs rather than professional careers (huge generalisation of course but true for so many) and don't see the benefit in waiting.

I agree with you. It's very hard for me to understand because I would just never let it happen (personality and job being reasons why I'm not the sort of person to let it happen). I was a pain in the arse to my DH making sure he was going to propose because I knew I wanted kids and then when I wanted kids it was basically get with the programme or I'm off and now that I'm cutting my hours and he's a high earner I'm planning to put something in writing in place and have been very clear that our resources now need to be pooled 100%.

*ofcourseshecan

That's pretty insightful, we are both from Bermuda and fellow Bermudians will have worked out by now who we are.

BUT we have been together 20 years so I don't think we fit your run of the mill £1 mumsnet women you seem to be referring to.

We are pretty equal tho so it prolly wouldn't play out like that irl.

Chill people only here - any fleecing tends to stem from inequality and relationships that were doomed from the get go.

Good advice.

I agree. It worked out for me but I have also been one of them and have made sure I've told my daughters that while I have no regrets and was fortunate, I left myself in a very vulnerable position. Women should always be in a position to leave, if they feel they need to.

My personal opinion is because society teaches ‘all you need is love’.

While I do think you should love someone in a long term relationship, we are taught everything will work out as long as there’s love and that we ‘just know’ when it’s forever
Agree with this.

Love's all well and good but it's worth establishing your views on big financial matters, how financial/domestic load should be shared, what expectations are regarding working and child raising, retirement and other boring topics before ploughing into a relationship where you're incompatible on major areas.

There are multiple threads a week of women who can’t leave or who have been left in the shit because they haven’t protected themselves financially. It’s depressing.

Thank you everyone .. this has actually been a very interesting discussion with some very thoughtful posts . and blessed with a minimum of performance agro by the usual kb warriors . Which must be some kind of record for AIBU ..

My take from it (and others will probably feel differently) is that women need to up their bar with whom they are prepared to have children with.. if he won't commit contractually then don't screw yourself committing to child birth and rearing .

(Marriage /cp is just a piece of paper . but one with some very important words written on it . )

That 'having a baby with a man who is financially better placed' is a poor choice without a legal contract (currently marriage or CP) ...that there is an educational package available for schools - but it's not mandatory.

Perhaps that is the essential that needs to be changed .. (along in my opinion ) for changes to the division of assets on separation to include any couples who have a joint child . (that will be an interesting legal conundrum for a married man who fathers a child whilst having an affair ... I haven't thought that through yet in my utopian fantasy of fairness to children of unmarried couples ..)

@Greennetting - couldn’t agree with you more. This waiting for a proposal is so disempowering. I’ve been married twice and both times we just agreed that’s what we would do.

Get your point but hate the assumption that marriage is ALWAYS the best thing for a woman. Not every woman earns less than the man she’s chosen to have kids with. Even after the invariable dent that having children does to your earnings. I’m in this category and have had some very condescending comments about not being married. Or ‘waiting’ for him to propose. Lol.

On the hand, if I did earn a lot less than him. How would marriage protect me unless he had significantly more assets than me - that I wanted a share of. Why should he promise me half his assets before we’ve even have kids.

I’m of the mindset that I’ll earn for myself and make financial decisions that will help provide for my children- with or without him, whereas holding up marriage as ‘the only sensible thing to do’ can lead women to put up with way too much to get that ring on their finger.

Not to mention the ridiculous waste of money a wedding day often ends up being - money that would be better off ina savings account as a safety net for a relationship breakdown.

You have brought up a very interesting and valid point.
Let's go back a few decades and look at how society in the UK got broken down, gradually.
Encouragement away from "traditional" beliefs, morals etc. Very large influx of people, who do not hold traditional western European beliefs, standards or philosophy.
People are now "encouraged" to do what they want, regardless of the consequences.
Everyone wanting their 15 minutes of fame!

I’ve always been very pragmatic about these things when it comes to my relationship. Absolutely insisted that we got married before buying a house or having a baby as my husband earns so much more than me. I know I’ll be the one in a vulnerable position if we ever separate so have always been conscious about being protected. If nothing else, protect your career. I know that no matter what I’ll always have a reasonably income and skills to keep me employed.

@IneedanewTV

"We all know that marriage, or rather divorce, favours the poorer partner"

I think you've missed the point of the thread 🤦‍♀️

My friend anti marriage, her mother married 3 or 4 times so chaotic childhood. What persuaded her was an accountant they used who laid out the bare facts of inheritance if he died. His job is a risky one it could get messy. Even messier if they split up

PUT A RING ON IT!!

But why would you need to be married to secure yourself financially? Why can’t each party just have their own money?

Split the house, if owned, by who paid what. And woman ensure she has her own good income, assets, investments, pension etc.

Isn’t the idea of marriage really disempowering in the sense that it provides for the woman, VIA the man.
Rather than empowering her to earn her own money and thus not need his?

Why would you want your ex’s money?
Wouldn’t you rather have made your own while with him, than SAHP and have to then ask for some of his?

Personally when I got pregnant (very early 20s) I was insulted at family asking if he ‘would marry me now’.
Like I needed his money 🤪 I make my own.

I notice this too. He also couldn't commit to choosing a house.

I was watching location location location this week and the couple on there... the mad was openly laughing about the fact that they'd had a kid, we're buying a house, but he had no plans to propose. The woman was clearly hanging on in hopes it would come.

How embarrassing for the poor woman, how did she react to this?

Agree 100%

It basically comes down to my Grandmother's favourite phrase, which I have lived my life by.

Plan for the worst then hope for the best.

As it is now, the relationship I am in is financially unequal in two ways. I own a mortgage free house but am on a v low wage. He is a v high earner but due to debt from his former bad decisions, is renting and only now in a position to save for a deposit to buy. Both late 40's. If we were to live together(no plans, my choice) there would be no plans to marry as I would lose half of my house to and he would lose nothing in a divorce. I know that now. But I cant honestly say I would have made the same decision in my naive 20's or 30's.

So I agree that educating women on this issue is key but I think it has to come from us to us. Teaching our daughters, sisters, neices, friends....mothers even from our own or our peers experiences.

This.

I don’t like the MN stance that women are passive bystanders in their own lives, subject to the whims of any passing man and easily manipulated.

Take control of your life.

*Personally I would like to see a change in the law which makes 'the father/mother/partner to a birth have his/her assets assessable in a split ..'

So for example :
Lived with a woman for 15 years. 3 kids . Not married . Split treaded in EXACTLY the same way as a marriage ..*

It's quite simple, if you want that protection get married or enter into a civil partnership.