How many more women are going to find themselves in this situation ?

[sofrustratedbylackofknowledge]

Thread borne by the sheer amount of posts this week alone, of women who have moved in with wealthier men . Men who own houses solely in their name.. and women who have children with them without a contract of marriage or civil partnership..

The relationship breaks down and the woman is either not working or massively economically disadvantaged compared with their partners .

Made even worst by the courts bias towards shared care rendering CM almost negligible...

Why are women putting themselves in this situation. ?

Marriage has a lot of patriarchal connotations which are 'no go' for some women... but now we have civil partnerships why would you not go for this option .. ? Or is it the man refusing to commit ?

Also really concerned about the massive number of contraception failures . So many women taking the pill finding themselves pregnant and deciding to continue the pregnancy with no legal protection ..is the pill /implant failing ?

I find it’s almost impossible to talk to women in these situations about these things as well. My sister in law and an ex-colleague/friend have gotten into this exact situation over the last few years - my SIL had a baby with her boyfriend in a house they co-own but his family provided the deposit for, and she’s now gone very part time in a job that was already low paying and didn’t have much career progression. Her boyfriend brings in almost all their money, baby has his name. I tried to talk to her about pensions/national insurance contributions/baby having both names/not giving up so much work and she just was so awkward and side-stepping I gave up. They don’t even have will’s, which my husband has talked to them about loads - if her boyfriend was to die tomorrow she’d get nothing!

What shocks me is a lot of the women who end up in these situations are clever, switched on and feminist women who just seem to lose their common sense, and then I think maybe are embarrassed so it becomes worse? I don’t know. It worries me a lot.

Then she is phenomenally daft .. unless of course she has unknown private wealth.

This is not a 'marriage ' thread .. marriage is not the be all end all of everything . It's about the appalling lack of legal protection for women who have children with a man who she isnt married/civil partnered to their OH.. and the 'loop hole ' that the lack of contract affords the man...

Personally I would like to see a change in the law which makes 'the father/mother/partner to a birth have his/her assets assessable in a split ..'

So for example :
Lived with a woman for 15 years. 3 kids . Not married . Split treaded in EXACTLY the same way as a marriage ..

Even if you get married never let your career suffer in relation to his - seen it too many times in friends, she drops part time to collect kids so he doesn’t get hassled at work, 10/15/20 years later it falls apart, she can’t afford to buy him out, home relationship and way of life all gone in one swoop.

We need a MN campaign !

Child with another half ? His /her assets are up for the split settlement .. based on child care... ?

These women make a choice to do that. I’ve got no sympathy for them when it goes tits up.

You’re overstepping OP if you think that those who have chosen not to get married should have the court decide who gets what when they split.

Half of all marriages fail and there is no joy involved in splitting assets. Far better to have an agreement in the first place which sets out the terms. All perfectly possible without getting married and a far more legally binding

It’s not the dark ages, women are perfectly capable of understanding finance and taking actions to protect their future financial position. And do that every day. They just don’t post about it on MN

This. ^ Rightly or wrongly, I actually inwardly cringe at women who've been with a man for 10 or 15 years or more - and especially if they've got one or two or more kids with him - and they're not married. They try and peddle this 'neither of us wants to get married, it's what we both want' bollux, but I know deep down probably 9 out of 10 women want to get married. I think they just try and convince themselves that they don't. But it's because HE doesn't want to in most cases.

I've got a close female relative aged 30 now who's been with the same bloke for 11 years since the age of 19. She kind of wanted to get married for the first three or four years, but he was just right against it. It was 'you'd best find someone else if you want marriage because it's not for me.' She loved him (still does) and didn't want to split, so she settled for this. Then she kept saying, 'I'm never getting married, no way, not ever. Patriarchy, patriarchy, not changing my maiden name, blah, blah, blah, blah. Not being owned by a man etc etc etc!' For about 4 or 5 years she said this!

A couple of years ago, after nine years together, he finally proposed, God knows why he suddenly changed his mind. Nobody has asked. But she was in tears with absolute joy because he asked her to marry him. The wedding is next June.

So it seems all along she did want to get married, but she tried to convince everybody else she didn't. I believe this is the case for a lot of women because why would a woman NOT want to get married? It brings lots more security, and proves the man is committed. And no WAY would I have children with a man without being married.

As I say, deep down I think most women want to get married - not only for the fact they've got security, and it shows commitment from him, but it also feels awkward when virtually every woman you know - sisters, nieces, cousins, friends, work colleagues, neighbours etc etc, are getting married, and YOU are always the bridesmaid, or just a guest.

When every woman has a ring on her finger - it's heart-breaking for a woman who's with a man who refuses to get married. I wouldn't stay with a man if he wouldn't get married. I just wouldn't.

To be honest, if a man has more money than the woman he is with, and has more assets, and is very solvent, they often won't get married. Many well-off men won't get married if they have nothing to gain from it.

Personally I would like to see a change in the law which makes 'the father/mother/partner to a birth have his/her assets assessable in a split

This is OK in principle but how does it work if the father has children with a wife and new partner(s)? The point of marriage/ civil partnership is that it is opt in, not opt out. I can't see how it would work the other way.

A staggering amount of people seem to think marriage is "just a piece of paper"
No it isnt

To many women are invested in the romance of a proposal and therefore are left hanging around waiting for when a man gets round to it

I went into my relationship as an equal party, therefore I wasn't about to hand all the power to the man and let him set the pace of the relationship solely. Instead we had mature adult discussions about whether we were ready to get engaged the same way we did about whether we were ready to buy a house etc

Not as romantic no, but much more equal. I even got DH an engagement present when he got me a ring because I thought it wasn't fair he got nothing.

But what I see a lot of is women hanging on waiting for their partners to propose. One of my colleagues is currently trying for a baby. They've had conversations about that, but she won't broach the topic of marriage because she wants it to come from him because its more romantic. He is a higher earner who is self employed and travels a lot and will not expect to pick up childcare (and already doesn't pick up housework). She is walking into a situation that could become problematic because romance is more important than practicality.

Years of films and TV shows and books have fed into this myth that the perfect proposal is so important. but its not, at all.

This is fine in theory. In practice the mother will often have taken some steps back in her career already because of maternity leaves, time out caring for young children etc., so when she re-enters the workforce her earning power will be substantially below that of her wealthier ex. If she wants to support herself she’ll have to work full time and pay for childcare after school and during school holidays (on her days with the children). That will be a much bigger financial hit proportionally than her ex will experience doing the same.

It makes me wince, not in embarrassment or anything like that but just the exposure and risk these people have.

Know someone (call her Friend A) who was in a relationship with someone for five years, engaged to them, she delayed the wedding to fit into the dress, they had a kid…but not married, he walked away and cheated and she has spent SIX YEARS trying to get any financial support from him, while he wants 50/50 access but hides huge amounts of cash (has his own very successful business).

Same with very sweet friends at school, who thought their boyfriends would be long term and when found they were pregnant they were left with no support from many of their families, no money, just judgement :( now they’re ok but only from their sheer tenacity and friends helping. But Friend A made the same mistake in her 30s… she just assumed she was in a safe place in her life.

Thing is, could happen to any of us at any time. But you wouldn’t spend so much time in business with another person without some formalities, and the same is true of our personal lives - especially when children and their security and happiness is involved. Why risk your and their futures for anything??? Makes me want to scream!

It's not always an informed choice though...

'He'll change once you have a baby...'
'You'll/He'll fall in love as soon as you see the baby...'
'Babies are the best thing that can happen to you...'
'Yes, you might rip from arse to clit and end up shitting through your vag but you will have a baby so everything will be perfect...'
'If you split, he will have to have the DC 50/50...'

The thing is hindsight is a wonderful thing. A lot of women sort of sleep walk into these positions e.g. giving up work because the cost of childcare is extortionate and their partner earns enough to 'support' the household. In a way the system is designed for women to fall down these pitfalls. The sheer bitterness though of getting divorced after a 15 year marriage, kids are more or less independent and all you have to show for it are the clothes on your back can really be the undoing of someone. It's very devastating to watch happen and when you try to warn them, some of them think of you as being the jealous or bitter one. And the cycle continues...

Exactly this.

Too many otherwise sensible and savvy people still believe that there’s such a thing as common law marriage.

Honestly, an awful lot of people just aren't that bright.

Pleasebeafleabite

It’s not the dark ages, women are perfectly capable of understanding finance and taking actions to protect their future financial position. And do that every day. They just don’t post about it on MN

... and yet there are so many who aren't ... 27 posts on MN this week alone(that I have seen - and I only come here in the evenings!)

If we put this in schools then they WILL know..

Please don't get me wrong . If people decide that want to take this risk (armed with the knowledge of the possible consequences from school ) then that's on them.

It's just that so many still have no idea ..

I’m the higher earner and have the larger house. I won’t marry because I don’t want to give up half if we ever then divorced. They are protecting their assets. But then again I don’t intend on having kids with my OH. I think it’s a bit different if you do and the woman then gives up her job to raise the children.

This sounds like a post from many married people.

Divorce sounds utterly shit and expensive.

I've been with DP 20 years and we have a ds. So many weddings we have been to served no purpose, half our friends are divorcing. I'd say that's about 10 couples. It's so hard for them.

If we broke up, our bank accounts would remain the same, our dc would see us both equally and our house would sell 50/50.

I can only imagine the people complaining are people who haven't been in an equal relationship and therefore don't have the same assets.

Don't you worry about the unmarried, we are fine!

I'd deffo worry if I had a faith and got married before god. That seems like a major life fuck up to me 🤷🏼‍♂️

Contraception was a disaster for me. Ended up pregnant on it 4x. He had a vasectomy.

Im not an idiot. I release two eggs each month at the same time and the 99.9% effective rate is based on your whole cycle, so it’s only 50% effective during your peak fertility time. Vasectomy worked a treat!

I was married. Wouldn’t move in with him without a commitment to marriage. We were engaged with a date set. I wasn’t messing around.

Marriage is a legal contract

The romantic idea of marriage is relatively recent

I'm a sahp. Not really planned but...life etc

I've had periods of pt work but only nmw.

Joint mortgage, joint account, joint savings, my own savings...I'd get half of dhs 2 good work pensions. I'd go for spousal maintainance too (because it would annoy him :))

If I kark it my half of the house is in trust for my kids.

If dh karks it I get a very decent death in service payment plus monthly pension.

I'm as protected as I can be.

Life doesn't always work out how we think it will 🤷‍♀️

What the hell is happening with formatting natm!!??

You get a job and work so you are protected. Even marriage doesn't protect you wholly , you might get a large percentage of a house but the courts favour a clean break. You won't be given spousal maintenance. I think many women will think baby Vs waiting for someone to marry me. The baby wins as women have a ticking clock.

Does seem worth saying the law re unmarried couples is pretty different in Scotland. I don't know if that does affect people's attitudes, but I can think of a few couples I know well (some with kids, some without) where both members of the couple have no interest in getting married as they don't see the point. I can see where they're coming from.