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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Religion, the Church of England and State Ceremonies

354 replies

cakeorwine · 13/11/2022 11:25

I know we have an established church. I get that. And that's probably the answer to this question.

I do feel uncomfortable with the role that religion - specifically the Church of England - plays in State Ceremonies.

Watching the Cenotaph events on Remembrance Sunday. A moving event - but it does have a lot of religious elements. Prayers, hymns and The Lord's Prayer.

I think that anything religious should stick to events that are just for people of that religion. Or if it is multi-faith, then involve other faiths.

Remembrance Sunday is a national event. Keep religion out of it and just stick to remembering the people who died.

OP posts:
MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 13/11/2022 14:12

Q2C4 · 13/11/2022 14:08

Separation of the State from religion seems to work well in France. French state secularism is based on respect for freedom of thought and freedom of religion. The absence of a state religion is thought to be a prerequisite for such freedoms.

Just did a quick google and that took France from 1789 to 1905 to sort that out.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 13/11/2022 14:13

The only tradition is Easter and Christmas

I thought these were Pagan festivals initially, that were hijacked by Christianity.

And don't forget almost all state schools are based on a loosely Christian education. School and religion is not separated in England, we don't have a secular education system l never saw any example of this in the 27 years l was a secondary teacher. The ‘collective act of worship’ was dropped some times ago.

So, not all state schools are based on it. Only religious ones.

jackstini · 13/11/2022 14:16

I didn't tell you to move to a different country OP
Just stayed it as an option if you didn't like the way things were in this one!

I believe there are still a lot of Christians in this country. Not all attend church, and indeed some who do are not great examples of Christians

Christian traditions are a huge part of the foundation of our country. I don't want us to lose that
There is plenty of secularity about for contrast.

Also wish a lot more people followed Christ's teaching - you are right not that many do it well!

SpeedwellPurple · 13/11/2022 14:16

Could we make Marks and Spencer the state religion instead?

And worship the Holy Bison?

Puzzledandpissedoff · 13/11/2022 14:21

That's not a very Christian thing to say - telling someone to move to a different country

You're right it's probably not, but then I'd avoid saying it anyway - not because it's unchristian, but since some of us don't welcome any particular religion telling us how to behave

Separation of the State from religion seems to work well in France

In America too, and ironically their % church attendance is much higher than in the UK
... or at least it worked well until the Supreme Court elected a majority whose views appear to have been incompatible with Roe v Wade

Redwineandroses · 13/11/2022 14:27

cakeorwine · 13/11/2022 13:41

So the laws and traditions which have been pointed out to you, even the school holiday timings, have not made you realise anything? You actually just think people not going to church makes us not a Christian country

Go on - what laws are specifically Christian?

The only tradition is Easter and Christmas.

Sunday trading laws, bank holidays in lieu to name a couple? People have been posting on this thread the laws and traditions. Have you really not been reading them?

CapMarvel · 13/11/2022 14:29

I can totally see where the OP is coming from.

The uk is essentially a secular country. The number of people actively believing in God, attending church etc is falling every year and so if you don't buy into any of it, it is weird that so many things are still overridingly dominated by religion.

Maybe not things like Christmas and rememberence sunday, but the idea that our kids still have to sit through religious services and half-hearted sermons at primary school when the vast majority of them will have no real religious upbringing does feel completely out of date now.

prettybird · 13/11/2022 14:34

We don't have Sunday trading laws in Scotland.

I always get caught out by that when I visit England and find the ships shut Shock

prettybird · 13/11/2022 14:35

Shops even Wink

RancidOldHag · 13/11/2022 14:36

I don't think Jesus would have said that

Luke 10:11

Essentially, if the habits of the land you find yourself in are anathema, then wipe the dust from your feet and go elsewhere

Miri13 · 13/11/2022 14:36

Don’t watch it then, it will save you being offended.

TrashyPanda · 13/11/2022 14:39

Go on - what laws are specifically Christian?

how about these for starters

the Church of Scotland Act 1921
the Church of England (Assembly) Powers Act 1919

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 13/11/2022 14:40

so if you don't buy into any of it, it is weird that so many things are still overridingly dominated by religion

I'm not sure that 10 minutes once a year is 'overridingly dominated by religion.' I can happily ignore anything Justin Welby says because I think he's a idiot. Ditto anything a random bishop says. Along with millions of people, I don't go to church at Christmas and Easter. I do accept that the CofE is the established church of England and that it has a role in national events like state funerals, coronations and the remembrance service. TBH, HM's funeral and today aside, I can't even recall when the church dominated any public event.

Kendodd · 13/11/2022 14:44

TrashyPanda · 13/11/2022 13:13

Great Britain was known as Tarshish back then

only a few 19th century commentators equated Tarshish with Britain.

its more commonly thought of as being in the eastern Mediterranean

Ooh, that's really interesting.
Thank you for this thread OP I would never have learnt the above without it.

Ted27 · 13/11/2022 15:04

@CapMarvel

in most schools children do not sit through religious services and sermons.

I can’t speak for Catholic faith schools as I have no experience of them but in neither of the state primaries my son attended did he do that

DroneFun · 13/11/2022 15:07

CoE based ceremonies are pretty harmless and connect us with your history and cultural roots. Many (most?) civic services, include representatives of different faiths. Equally, many religious places in the UK that are not CoE
happily celebrate some British ceremonies by adding their own twist. You'll find that religious leaders have more in common with each other than with atheists, they kind of get each other and more often than not respect each other.

Op, would you rather we had lovely Chinese style state ceremonies? So much more relatable, right ? If you get rid of ceremonies rooted in Christianity you have to replace this with something. What will it be? What style ceremony would the people of the UK unite behind? Some nice socialist rituals? They still have to be rooted in a belief system or philosophy. It really might be a case of better the devil you know. For lack of a better expression.

DroneFun · 13/11/2022 15:08

connect us with our

MuraRocker · 13/11/2022 15:09

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mpsw · 13/11/2022 15:12

Remember that the Remembrance Services come up from the grass roots, so to speak. It's based on military practices, but decided by each branch of RBL. If the grassroots wanted and made changes, the national level would follow.

If OP wants change, then the way to make that happen is to support the types of remembrance she thinks are preferable, and to join her local branch of RBL to work for change from within

funnymummmy · 13/11/2022 15:12

Yet I don't think anyone has answered the question about the actual population of the country and their religious beliefs. Which I would have thought would be more important when it comes to being a Christian country.

You do understand OP, that English culture and society is inextricably connected to and has been moulded from the Christian tradition? So many aspects of society are rooted in Christianity even if they are more secular today. History and identity are extremely important and even if many people don't practice Christianity, tradition stemming from Christianity binds all people to a common culture which creates some stability and constants in a sea of different identities.

A lot of secular people "worship" social media and internet celebrities, so perhaps we should replace Christian tradition with that - my idea of hell but would probably tick your modern diversity boxes, OP.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 13/11/2022 15:16

Why do you watch the Cenotaph ceremony, OP, if it bothers you that much?

MuraRocker · 13/11/2022 15:19

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nomoreflyingducks · 13/11/2022 15:31

Here we go quick history lesson for you OP.
Lesson 1: We know that the British Isles had pockets of Christianity by the fifth century. We know this because a chap called Gildas left us some notes about it. What we know through Gildas is there were two forms of Christianity Catholic (brought over with some Roman dudes) and Celtic (it's unclear where and when Celtic Christianity arose but it was the prevailing Christian faith).
There are some myths/Legends that Jesus did indeed come to these lands (possibly to Glastonbury) however this has never been proved, what Historians do know is there is a period of time that Jesus ' goes quiet' (for want of a better word) and it has been hypothesised that he was travelling and spreading his word).
Lesson 2:
Christianity took hold and was the predominant faith in the British Isles from the sixth centenary through the early twentieth century, it is still a main faith in the Uk, despite declining numbers of bums on pews it's still very much part of our society (eg many of our laws are built upon Christian principles).

Lesson 3: (now I am having to rely on my history lessons from over 30 yrs ago so my dates might be slightly out)
Remembrance Sunday- WW1 officially ended on the 11 th hour on the 11th day of the 11th month. The first Remembrance Day (or armistice day as it was originally known) took place on 11.11.1919. To commemorate those that died in the 1914-18 war.
Lesson 4 back to Christianity.
The most important date for Christians is Easter. Why? Put simply because Jesus rose from the dead (this is the single most important aspect of Christianity and one I'll come back to)
Christianity was one of the first religion and continues to be one of the main religions believing in life after death FOR EVERYONE!

Lesson 5: think back to a time before science, before we had an understanding of illness, when mortality was high and life was cheap, when we had no (or very limited) understanding of the human brain, think how comforting it was to know, some dude had walked among his people saying "Wotcha, I'm still here, body gone spirit lives on...follow me and you can have this too" I mean just think about it, what's not to like? suddenly death doesn't hold its fear for the dying, for the bereaved it gives comfort, how amazing to think you'll see your loved one again.

Lesson 6: religion on Fire! So now the embers of Christianity slowly smoulder, and the movement gets more momentum. The Roman Empire is gradually disintegrating, and the power of empire is losing its grip, with various tribes slowly taking back their lands (no one likes to be oppressed....something dictators can't seem to understand) and gathering armies. These are troubled times for all, what do humans fundamentally do in troubled times? Call out for help, this help is answered in the form of a new fangled religion (only a few centuries old). So now Christianity is growing in strength and predominance. By 800AD Christianity is the main religion in Europe (including the UK) and the churches power continues to grow. Pretty much from the reign of Charles the Great, Church and State are now so intertwined that one can no longer survive without the other.

Lesson 7 historical stuff: so apart from Cromwell the Uk has always had monarchy and church ruling together (not always harmoniously King John was excommunicated a good few times for not towing the party line as was Heners 8th who got so fed up he broke away from the Catholic Church and set up his own: the Church of England). Many of our European cousins had more impressive rebellions (Looking at you France!) where State and Religion separated. This never happened in the Uk.

Lesson 8: back to 1919. So the war, which was only meant to last a few weeks, saw more young men, than in any other time, die. Some of these men were barely into manhood. It's was an atrocity on a scale never seen before. Thousands left to Mourn and Christianity was there to give hope, bring peace and allow people to come together in their grief and remember those who died to allow those who were left behind to have their freedom. As the King (1919) and our current king were and are both head of state and Church of England, it should not come as any surprise that when the head of state is present then of course so is the church.

I have written this in the most basic way possible, there is a huge amount I have left out, it's a hugely complex area and I'm neither historian nor theologian, but I hope that goes some way to answer your question of why are so many state events Intertwined with Christianity (at least I think that's what you are asking? You discussion points seem to shift around a bit).

nomoreflyingducks · 13/11/2022 15:35

Put simply because Jesus rose from the dead (this is the single most important aspect of Christianity and one I'll come back to)Christianity was one of the first religion and continues to be one of the main religions believing in life after death FOR EVERYONE! I should have added for nearly everyone...if you were really, really bad and didn't repent then the fiery bowels of the earth awaited your arrival

Abhannmor · 13/11/2022 15:57

People in Europe are mostly cultural Christians on other words @nomoreflyingducks ?
Basically, yes. Caveat re Celtic Christianity - the Irish had a different tonsure and a different way of calculating the date of Easter. It came from mainland Europe.

Every year we have the Wren Boys on St Stephens Day. Yet without fail some druid called Nigel Nosering will pop up to tell me ' Christmas was a pagan festival!' Well duh.

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