Religion, the Church of England and State Ceremonies

[cakeorwine]

I know we have an established church. I get that. And that's probably the answer to this question.

I do feel uncomfortable with the role that religion - specifically the Church of England - plays in State Ceremonies.

Watching the Cenotaph events on Remembrance Sunday. A moving event - but it does have a lot of religious elements. Prayers, hymns and The Lord's Prayer.

I think that anything religious should stick to events that are just for people of that religion. Or if it is multi-faith, then involve other faiths.

Remembrance Sunday is a national event. Keep religion out of it and just stick to remembering the people who died.

Not really.

People have said that it is a Christian country because the State Religion is Christianity.

Yet I don't think anyone has answered the question about the actual population of the country and their religious beliefs. Which I would have thought would be more important when it comes to being a Christian country.

Personally, I think this country is not a Christian country in the way it behaves. It may say "Hey, look at our state religion. We are Christian. " But I think the messages of Jesus have been lost.

(I am not even sure if they were ever really followed, if you look at our history)

What percentage of the population do you think celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ?

what percentage of the population do you think do not celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ?

@cakeorwine I think you are being very disrespectful to try to start a bun fight on Remembrance Sunday . If you wish to discuss the role of state church in England, you could do it on another day without involving or offending those for whom this is a very solemn ceremony to remember those who were injured or lost their lives in conflict.

You're making the huge assumption that OP is capable of being educated. All I'm reading is someone with their fingers stuffed firmly in their ears and firing out uninformed cod philosophical musings about church and state. OP isn't actually listening to anything anyone says.

Funnily enough, back in the post war decades right through to the 80s, I remember far more people being concerned to state that the U.K. was ‘a free country’, rather than it being a ‘Christian country’. The sudden re-statement of religion as the basis of this country, following the fashion established by the USA, concerns me: particularly a religion invented to keep the peace of an authoritarian state in a diverse empire, particularly the new form chosen by another would-be authoritarian leader, Henry VIII. The op is right to question it in general.

Personally, I think this country is not a Christian country in the way it behaves. It may say "Hey, look at our state religion. We are Christian. " But I think the messages of Jesus have been lost.

Can't argue with that, sadly @cakeorwine

OP, I get you.

Every national event has a healthy dollop of Christianity with it.

Why can't it be secular? Or have all religious representatives speak?

@cakeorwine

I celebrate Christmas because its part of my culture, my parents and my son because they are practicing Christians, though not CofE
I know several Hindus who describe themselves as Hindu but do not practice except for participating in the festivals in the same way as I do at Christmas and Easter. In my office there are many young Muslim people who do not practice, but take part in Eid.
It's really not that unusual for people to be culturally Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh or whatever, not actively practising but participating in the festivals of that religion

So the laws and traditions which have been pointed out to you, even the school holiday timings, have not made you realise anything? You actually just think people not going to church makes us not a Christian country! 😮

Remembrance is important.

It's just another reminder of the strong link between the Church of England and our Nation.

So the laws and traditions which have been pointed out to you, even the school holiday timings, have not made you realise anything? You actually just think people not going to church makes us not a Christian country

Go on - what laws are specifically Christian?

The only tradition is Easter and Christmas.

particularly the new form chosen by another would-be authoritarian leader, Henry VIII

That's interesting, because I remember covering the Reformation in England for A levels, and us asking what direction Henry VIII intended for the church in the future. The consensus at the time, and I think pretty much after, is that once he had his divorce from Katherine and had declared he was the head of the church, was that he didn't have one - the swerves from reform to orthodoxy were unpredictable and he always regarded himself as a Catholic, just not one who owed allegiance to the Pope.

Incidentally, he wasn't a 'would be' authoritarian leader. He was an absolute (in all senses of the word) tyrant and people were terrified of him.

@MrsDanversGlidesAgain Yes, it's common knowledge that Henry VIII died a staunch Catholic and was very against the ideas of Martin Luther.

Incidentally, he wasn't a 'would be' authoritarian leader. He was an absolute (in all senses of the word) tyrant and people were terrified of him.

Correction accepted!

😉

If Christmas was moved to another time then at least part of the end of autumn term would be moved to the new Christmas.

At least two of our school holidays are built around our Christian celebrations in general.

And don't forget almost all state schools are based on a loosely Christian education. School and religion is not separated in England, we don't have a secular education system though this is less obvious these days.

This.

If Christmas was moved, we could just have those 2 days off - like some schools do for Easter.

We would have 2 weeks off at the end of the year.

And then have Christmas like we have for Easter.

But I can't see Christmas being moved.

If you don't want to live in a Christian country and respect its traditions (along with all other cultures and religions we are home to) you can always move!

While true in theory, I'm not sure this is much of an answer - after all, isn't it an important part of citizenship to advocate for what we believe to be right (and of course to respect that it won't happen if the majority don't agree)?

I'm just mindful of what happens if immigrants are told "You could always leave" and wonder if the indigenous population deserve any less ...

@Vincitveritas

It matters a great deal

Just Google was Jesus white and see what you get

I don't think Jesus would have said that.

That's not a very Christian thing to say - telling someone to move to a different country.

Separation of the State from religion seems to work well in France. French state secularism is based on respect for freedom of thought and freedom of religion. The absence of a state religion is thought to be a prerequisite for such freedoms.

I'm an atheist - but those that died in both wars were probably highly likely to have been raised with Christian faith and many other faiths fought alongside. Therefore it's entirely appropriate to remember them in this way.

The UK does not have an established church.

While the Church of England might be England's established church, with the monarch as its head, that is not the case in Scotland. The Church of Scotland is Scotland's national church which is not the same thing - and the King is not its head.

While England might be the largest part of the UK, it is only one of four constituent parts. There seems to be an awful lot of conflation (by some, not all ) on this thread of England with the UK.