Religion, the Church of England and State Ceremonies

[cakeorwine]

I know we have an established church. I get that. And that's probably the answer to this question.

I do feel uncomfortable with the role that religion - specifically the Church of England - plays in State Ceremonies.

Watching the Cenotaph events on Remembrance Sunday. A moving event - but it does have a lot of religious elements. Prayers, hymns and The Lord's Prayer.

I think that anything religious should stick to events that are just for people of that religion. Or if it is multi-faith, then involve other faiths.

Remembrance Sunday is a national event. Keep religion out of it and just stick to remembering the people who died.

If you don't want to live in a Christian country and respect its traditions (along with all other cultures and religions we are home to) you can always move

Bingo

Bingo

Is that the new 'Wow, just wow'?

I give presents on Christmas Day.

I don't celebrate the birth of Christ. Or remember the death of Christ.

It's nice to have day like that in our country.

Great Britain was known as Tarshish back then

only a few 19th century commentators equated Tarshish with Britain.

its more commonly thought of as being in the eastern Mediterranean

It's a comment people get when they question how things are done in this country.

Just like other national events. If you want to take part, then there may be elements you are uncomfortable with but feature in it

Rathe like the one we have now then. Ooops, we appear to have argued ourselves around in a circle.

You wouldn't get "two extra days off" of your choosing because there would be no need for it. The days off are for Christian celebration so if they abolished that you wouldn't just get two days off on your choosing for no reason.

@MrsDanversGlidesAgain You're forgetting the vital point of Jesus being God incarnate.

@TrashyPanda 'All the young lions' and the description of tin prodiction would point to GB rather than Spain or another Mediterranean country, but we digress.

@MuraRocker

My grandmother would have argued it with you.
Why do you think there was such a fuss when Madonna had a black Christ in a video?
A lot of people don't want to confront the idea that Jesus was a middle Easter Jew, if they've even given it a moments thought.
It's not something that occurred to me until I was an adult

It's nice to have day like that in our country

so you are exercising your choice and are explicitly celebrating Christmas. You might wish to divorce yourself from the religious elements, but they are implicit.

why not do this on another day and divorce yourself fully from the religious element?

But remember that non Church of England soldiers fought for this country or the commonwealth.

It's not a circle.

It's the fact that there are National events that may have elements in that people are uncomfortable with but which you have to endure if you want to take part.

My question really is - do these elements have to be in there? And if so, why? Or can it be modified.

There has certainly been some modification to National Events as society changes.

I think the Coronation might well have some changes as well.

I think the Coronation might well have some changes as well

Better call Buck House and the Duke of Norfolk. I hear that everything is on hold until they have your vital input.

We’ve just been discussing this in my family. My dh and dd (12) are almost evangelically atheist and disliked the religious elements, although they will be respectful of them. I am almost evangelically atheist at times, but I don’t find Remembrance Day to be one of those times. I view te religious elements more as just a formal and public expression of good will and hope and blessing to anyone affected by war. It adds solemnity to that. Something has got to save the poor buggers, or just help by way of that public good will.

I cringe for anyone who wants to shut down discussion to be honest.

We have a nice day on the 25th December.
Christmas just happens to fall on that day.

If the Church decided to move Christmas to when Jesus probably was born, I think that there would still be present giving on the 25th December as it's a nice time of the year. Near the end of the year, nearly New Year, a nice time to have a break. And it's the school holidays.

Christmas Day is near Solstice. Solstice was the original midwinter festival, for a good reason which makes far more sense to me (don’t we all hate the dark days?).

A lot of people don't want to confront the idea that Jesus was a middle Easter Jew, if they've even given it a moments thought.
It's not something that occurred to me until I was an adult

@Ted27 Personally I've always known this, why would it be a problem?

Near the end of the year, nearly New Year, a nice time to have a break. And it's the school holidays.

@cakeorwine It's the school holidays for a reason OP...because of Christmas!

I think Charles has already made some changes to the last Coronation.

Is he Defender of the Faith? Or Defender of all faiths?
Annointed by God?

This is the last text

Archbishop. Will you solemnly promise and swear to govern the Peoples of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Union of South Africa, Pakistan, and Ceylon, and of your Possessions and the other Territories to any of them belonging or pertaining, according to their respective laws and customs?

Queen. I solemnly promise so to do.

Archbishop. Will you to your power cause Law and Justice, in Mercy, to be executed in all your judgements?

Queen. I will.

Archbishop. Will you to the utmost of your power maintain the Laws of God and the true profession of the Gospel? Will you to the utmost of your power maintain in the United Kingdom the Protestant Reformed Religion established by law? Will you maintain and preserve inviolably the settlement of the Church of England, and the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government thereof, as by law established in England? And will you preserve unto the Bishops and Clergy of England, and to the Churches there committed to their charge, all such rights and privileges, as by law do or shall appertain to them or any of them?

Queen. All this I promise to do.

Then the Queen arising out of her Chair, supported as before, the Sword of State being carried before her, shall go to the Altar, and make her solemn Oath in the sight of all the people to observe the premisses: laying her right hand upon the Holy Gospel in the great Bible (which was before carried in the procession and is now brought from the Altar by the Arch-bishop, and tendered to her as she kneels upon the steps), and saying these words:

The things which I have here before promised, I will perform and keep. So help me God.
Then the Queen shall kiss the Book and sign the Oath.

The Queen having thus taken her Oath shall return again to her Chair, and the Bible shall be delivered to the Dean of Westminster.

We have a nice day on the 25th December. Christmas just happens to fall on that day

you make it sound coincidental.
it isn’t.
no matter how much you wish it was.
why not celebrate New Year instead?

Btw - the schools are only on holiday because it is Christmas.
that’s literally why that time period is chosen.

And what events are the school holidays built around...? Christian celebrations.

You could always celebrate the Solstice instead, I do.

Yes. I know.

Because of tradition and the role of Christianity in this country in the past.

What percentage of the population do you think celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ?

And how many do you think just celebrate is at a nice day off work, a chance to relax, give presents and see family?

OP has this thread at least educated you on the question you asked in your second post?

Is he Defender of the Faith? Or Defender of all faiths?

defender of the Faith

this is the oath he swore at the first Privy Council

I, Charles the Third by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and of Northern Ireland, and of My other Realms and Territories, King, Defender of the Faith, do faithfully promise and swear that I shall inviolably maintain and preserve the Settlement of the True Protestant Religion as established by the laws of Scotland in prosecution of the Claim of Right and particularly an Act intituled an ‘Act for Securing the Protestant Religion and Presbyterian Church Government’ and by the Acts passed in both Kingdoms for the Union of the two Kingdoms, together with the Government, Worship, Discipline, Rights and Privileges of the Church of Scotland: so help me God