Religion, the Church of England and State Ceremonies

[cakeorwine]

I know we have an established church. I get that. And that's probably the answer to this question.

I do feel uncomfortable with the role that religion - specifically the Church of England - plays in State Ceremonies.

Watching the Cenotaph events on Remembrance Sunday. A moving event - but it does have a lot of religious elements. Prayers, hymns and The Lord's Prayer.

I think that anything religious should stick to events that are just for people of that religion. Or if it is multi-faith, then involve other faiths.

Remembrance Sunday is a national event. Keep religion out of it and just stick to remembering the people who died.

The Church of England has a big hold in this country

It does indeed, and while it thoroughly appreciates this it's the issue of having an established church I object to

I've every respect for individual beliefs (or none), but not for any particular religion enjoying state sponsorship

@Spookypig

I wonder how many Christians realise that Jesus wasnt white - given the portrayal of him

The bishops in the House of Lords influencing our laws

I'll take a bishop over Tom Watson any day.

Cultural Christian?

Our values seem to have lost the values that Jesus believed in.

Our laws also seem to have lost those values as well.

And yes - our Bank Holidays are linked to Easter and Christmas.

I think that if people were offered the choice of having 2 extra holidays of their choice or having to take Easter off and Christmas off - well, personally I would work on Good Friday and Easter Monday, but take off Christmas and Boxing Day - as the Christmas period is more family / traditional but Easter is just a few days for me - and missing it because I was at work wouldn't be a pain.

What an odd comment. Christians are obviously followers of Christ. You say that he was Jewish as if it’s some ‘haha!’ moment that is unknown to Christians or something?

You have (deliberately?) misunderstood my comment. I don't have a clue how you got to the ha ha bit.

OP asked whether Jesus would recognise the UK as a Christian country. I merely pointed out that it's a bit of a silly question because (if he magically turned up here today) he would have no clue how to measure it's hypothetical Christianness.

The UK is a Christian country because (as many have pointed out) that is the state religion. Lots of countries practice Christianity much more but do so separately from the state.

OP asked whether Jesus would recognise the UK as a Christian country. I merely pointed out that it's a bit of a silly question because (if he magically turned up here today) he would have no clue how to measure it's hypothetical Christianness

Wouldn't he look at what he preached, his teachings and see how countries were doing?

The Good Samaritan and all that?

So it's ok for people in the UK to question how things are done

of course it is.
and it’s okay for people to disagree with you, even if they are not not Vritish.

because that’s how life works.

you don’t like the service.
that’s fine. It’s your choice.
why not organise your own Remembrance Service, doing things the way you want to do them? And invite people to attend. P

and leave the traditional services to those who wish to attend them.

there were people of many different religions and people who do not have a religion, all together, marching past the Cenotaph today. 10,000 people.

they chose to go there and take part of their own free will
nobody forced them to go.
some people travelled long distances to get there.
why would they go if they were not happy with the format?

why would they go if they were not happy with the format

They would go to remember their fallen comrades.

The format could for some - be uncomfortable - with the religious element - but they want to take part so if you want to take part, you have to have the Church of England and prayers and hymns.

Just like other national events. If you want to take part, then there may be elements you are uncomfortable with but feature in it.

Armistice Day, which looks back to WW1 in particular, remembers people who were predominantly Christian and who did not feel the discomfort you feel. It would be disrespectful to them to change this
I was about to say similar. Obviously things evolve, and Remembrance Day now has a purpose beyond the original Armistice Day events, but that original purpose is still there. I don't think that it should move too far away from the original intention and certainly the religious aspect would have been extremely important to many of the veterans and families who were there at the beginnings of what has become a national tradition. It's a comparatively short part of the event as a whole, and I think lots of people gain comfort from the traditional aspect of the service whether they truly believe or not, plus it's respectful to the origins and originators of the event. I do think there could still be more recognition made of the the soldiers from different cultures and religions who served and continue to serve in the British forces, though I think that has improved somewhat in recent times, but if you consider the origins of this day, I think it's right that it continues to contain at least some element of Christian ritual.

Aa an aside, he would have heard of us actually - Great Britain was known as Tarshish back then.

Wouldn't he look at what he preached, his teachings and see how countries were doing?

If hypothetical Jesus came back and started surveying countries I don't think the functions of the state would be his primary concern.

I think part of why you are getting a lot of flak is because you keep moving the goal posts. It's very hard to know what you point is.

Framing your OP as a question was an error when you clearly were trying to make an argument.

I think very many people would agree with you that the Establishment of the CofE is morally wrong and not at all representative of modern Britain.

I think most people would disagree that means there is no place for the largest religion in public ceremony.

Jesus wouldn't even have known of the existence of the UK

I wouldn't want to assume that, Mrs Danvers. After all it was 55BC when Julius Caesar first got here, and though the conquest didn't take place until 43AD it's surely possible that a politically aware leader might have known what they were up to?

Although of course it wasn't the United Kingdom then ...

Well there are still lots of Christians on this country

Church attendance being down is just geographical; people worshiping online, via zoom and Facebook live etc. has grown massively over the past few years

The prayers and hymns within the remembrance service are very traditional and are often a comfort to those attending

If you don't want to live in a Christian country and respect its traditions (along with all other cultures and religions we are home to) you can always move!

I am as religious as a fish on a bicycle and I don't have a problem with it.

The beliefs of others is for them to decide, as mine is for me. That is why I have no issues with ceremonies.

OP do you celebrate CHRISTmas?

They would go to remember their fallen comrades

You can do that anywhere

they actively chose to attend this service

10,000 specifically chose to attend this service of their own free will.

you don’t like it - fair enough
but don’t try to deny the men and women who wish to attend their right to do so, just because they don’t agree with you.

like I said - organise your own alternative.

Wouldn't he look at what he preached, his teachings and see how countries were doing?

Don't worry, you can be sure He's doing exactly that.

Was it? I can't imagine an itinerant preacher and would be messiah was that geographically well-informed.

YABVU as there were representatives of all faiths at the Cenotaph today, just as there normally is.

Just a thought - some years ago as Prince Charles, the King went on record as saying he would like to be Defender of Faiths - plural - as in all faiths, not just Christian and not just Anglican.

Absolutely!

Here we go. Not long before the white saviour complex was revealed.

Most people from other religions don’t get as hot and bothered as the progressives ‘fighting’ for them.

so if you want to take part, you have to have the Church of England and prayers and hymns

there is nothing particularly Church of England about the prayers or hymns.

they wouldn’t be out of place in the Church of Scotland, the Church of Ireland, The Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church etc

if people object to these elements, then they don’t have to attend.
they can take part in an act of remembrance in some other way.

It's an intriguing thought, that's for sure. How well informed would he have been about what was going on at the furthest reaches of the Roman empire?