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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it's bonkers that having the Cup in Qatar

130 replies

Jux · 08/11/2022 22:49

Will make any difference to anything other than giving the dosh to Qatar and Qatari business.

It made no difference to human rights abuses when we had the Olympics in China so why does anyone expect this to be any different?

OP posts:
bluelavender · 09/11/2022 13:51

"In 2019 there were allegations Fifa had benefited from a $400m rights deal with Al Jazeera, Qatar’s state TV station, offered just 21 days before the bid decision, with an extra $100m top-up should Qatar succeed. Fifa denies this was material to any decision made."

Brefugee · 09/11/2022 15:03

FIFA isn't corrupt. FIFA is a non-profit organisation that develops and administers football tournaments and as such it is free to set its own governance procedures and rules for membership/participation.

When people from Sepp Blatter downwards are a) so personally connected to the FIFA brand and b) corrupt, it is disingenuous to say "FIFA isn't corrupt, it's the functionaries".

No most football fans are not terribly bright

bore off

I read elsewhere that Qatar are losing a shit ton of money on this. Whether it's from building all the stadiums/hotels, or sponsorship or paying bribes or incentives, I'm not sure. Frankly? I'm not that sure i really care.

In this one case for me it comes clearly down to yet another organisation removing football yet another step (several billion steps) further from the grass roots organisation it was. Sure, things develop, that is good. But the whole thing is now totally ridiculous. So from splitting up TV rights so fans pay more to see the same number of televised games, to corrupt regimes sponsoring/buying clubs, to bribery to host events, to corporate boxes going for thousands and all the related increased costs to the fans of actually getting to see their team play - it's all a huge hot mess.

is it wrong for a country with no tradition of playing football at any level to get to host the WC? Yes
Is it wrong that all these events (WC, Euros, Champions/Europa/Whatever League) have become a big money go round? yes
is it wrong to have the WC at a time inconvenient to many football playing nations? nope
should you obey the laws (no matter how daft or restrictive you think they are) of the place you visit? yes
and so on

queenofarles · 09/11/2022 15:25

Brefugee have you been there?
as I have , the money they spent is not entirely on stadiums or the World Cup , they’ve practically rebuilt the entire country, Complete new infrastructure , roads , highways , a newer more advanced port , hospitals, things were still being built when we left , so many was built in a matter of years .

where did you read they are losing a shit load of money ?

Brefugee · 09/11/2022 16:18

in the other thread here that's running about it. I haven't fact checked because, frankly i don't care.

I haven't been to Qatar and i have no intention of going there or any other of the close states. It is more to do with the heat and the resources rather than anything else, because in my view if you go somewhere you need to keep to their rules. I have no interest in any of those countries.

I am very interested in football though, which is why I'm cross about this world cup and not paying it any attention. That is, again, more to do with football although human rights worries are a side issue that i don't want to ignore.

hesbeingabitofadick · 09/11/2022 16:25

If the players and the commentators are really bothered about the working conditions of those that built the stadia, or the beliefs the country holds against same sex relationships then they should refuse to play/commentate...
Not going to happen tho...too much £££££££

hesbeingabitofadick · 09/11/2022 16:28

@Brefugee I am very interested in football though, which is why I'm cross about this world cup and not paying it any attention.
Me too...I couldn't give a monkeys and can't wait for it to get out of the way.

Brefugee · 09/11/2022 16:33

If the players and the commentators are really bothered about the working conditions of those that built the stadia, or the beliefs the country holds against same sex relationships then they should refuse to play/commentate...
Not going to happen tho...too much £££££££

that's not how it works though. I know people bang on about how much some players earn but they are the actual drivers that allow the business of football to exist. There are probably caveats in their contracts if they get called up to play for their country. A young athlete isn't going to turn this down. I wouldn't, but then i wouldn't be doing more than the absolute minimum of the corporate stuff they have to do.

The losers here are the fans. As usual.

I am astounded though, at the sheer numbers of people talking about this as though it's something new. We have had protests about locations of big sports events in the past, the location of Eurovision etc etc. People who are interested tend to start talking about it early, and when it's topical because it's about to start it hits the mainstream. Then it's all "oooooooh but you have a laptop! hypocrite" shit. Tedious.

@hesbeingabitofadick - we're going to watch our Women's team, or our U23 team if the women are away. We have a winter break here anyway so we won't mis many matches. Except the actual WC. But I'm just not interested this time. We'll see how i feel for the next one (tbh i have paid so little attention to FIFA events lately i don't even know where it will be)

DuncinToffee · 09/11/2022 16:41

Brefugee WC 2026 will be in Canada, US and Mexico

queenofarles · 09/11/2022 16:56

I haven't been to Qatar and i have no intention of going there or any other of the close states.
so you are just basing your all these allegations on a report from the Guardian ?

I don’t care about football, nor do I care about Qatar , it’s things like virtue signaling while still keeping silent on so many other human right violations , violations that western countries are directly linked to. The sad thing is , if Qatar start exporting more NLG to Europe , the tone would drastically be Lowered .

Jux · 09/11/2022 17:18

I'm so pissed off and tired of hearing the oathetic excuse that "sport isn't political" - of course it bloody is. If the team had refused to play, if every western team had refused, what then?

I remember apartheid, I demonstrated against it, against SA participating in sports competitions etc. That had an effect.

OP posts:
DuncinToffee · 09/11/2022 17:21

This was said by Qatar World Cup ambassador and former Qatar international Khalid Salman

homosexuality "damage in the mind".

He also said the LGBTQ+ people going to Qatar should "accept our rules"

Salman had told German broadcaster ZDF: "[Homosexuality] is haram. You know what haram [forbidden] means?

"I am not a strict Muslim but why is it haram? Because it is damage in the mind," he said before the interview was stopped by an accompanying official

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 09/11/2022 17:23

bluelavender · 09/11/2022 13:48

There is evidence that FIFA are institutionally corrupt and has weak governance which puts its ability to carry out its stated mission at risk. The money lost in bribes could pay for grassroots football in developing counties.

You may have a separate view about football and politics; and prefer an approach where sport is apolitical. But your post does rather read as being apologistic for an appalling corrupt organisation. We know that at least $28 million was lost in bribes. The corruption matters .How many football pitches could that have created? How many children have lost the ability to participate?

The Guardian published a very carefully worded article highlighting the murkiness around the decision to send the World Cup to Qatar. We should challenge corruption wherever we we it- but this feels like its on a whole different scale

But FIFA are a non-profit NGO, not a government body, there's no requirement for them to have strong governance, regardless of how it affects their ability to purse their organisational goals.

They're not regulated or legally tied to any particular obligation or mission, they could quite legally set a new goal of building diamond encrusted mansions for all senior managers if they wanted to.

As long as their operations / accounts / policies meet the legal / regulatory requirements of Switzerland (I think that's where they're registered) then they're fine to govern themselves as they see fit. No amount of complaining or calling out can change that.

Wrt to bribery, as i said that's a differnt matter. Each country has it's own bribery laws, and while most nations have laws around public bribery, not all have them around private bribery, creating legal grey areas which are heartily exploited by all.

If there's evidence of illegal bribery or corruption then it's up to that particular nation to prosecute the individuals, but you can't enforce governance changes on an essentially private overseas organisation because of the action of staff in your country, no matter how deep the corruption runs, and because there's no regulatory body for FIFA there's no way to fine FIFa the ngo either, unless the break operational law/regulations too.

At best governments could look at setting up a football equivalent of the FCA or something similar to oversee FIFA but then FIFA are under no obligation to operate in a country that demands that. Governments and national football associations are also completely free to not join FIFA or to set up their own governance body if they want to have more robust governance.

As for what could of been done with the lost bribe money we will never know but, surely the onus for any negative impacts of that has to be on the payer and not the payee. It's one thing to say "give me a little sweetener and I'll help you with X" it's another to actually take public money and pay it. I'd also say the very fact that the article you linked regarding lost bribes states that FIFA themselves will be receiving a payment of around $200 million shows just how legally grey the whole thing is.

I'm not apologising for FIFA, more saying that calling for them to change is pointless as there's no real way to enforce it. If you're genuinely appalled at how FIFA operates then you need to petition your national government and football association to withdraw from FIFA competitions and set up on their own.

queenofarles · 09/11/2022 17:33

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Thebestwaytoscareatory · 09/11/2022 17:35

When people from Sepp Blatter downwards are a) so personally connected to the FIFA brand and b) corrupt, it is disingenuous to say "FIFA isn't corrupt, it's the functionaries".

No it's not. FIFA have been around since 1904, long before Blatter, and will more than likely be around long after he's dead. He also relucantly stood down from the organisation (some would say was removed) in 2015 when the corruption cases where prosecuted, so hasn't been there for almost 8 years.

The fact that there are issues still in FIFA is more to do with the types of people who occupy positions of power in general, not because a particular organisation is corrupt. Scratch beneath the surface of any large NGO from Save the Children to the WWF and you'll find murkiness, bribery and corruption bubbling away, that doesn't mean the entire institution and everyone working there are also corrupt, just that a lot of dicks end up in top jobs.

arctica · 09/11/2022 17:43

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Closeted queers? Really?

Yes that's his opinion and it's disgusting.

DuncinToffee · 09/11/2022 17:44

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Homosexuality is punishable by up to seven years’ imprisonment in Qatar

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 09/11/2022 17:46

Jux · 09/11/2022 17:18

I'm so pissed off and tired of hearing the oathetic excuse that "sport isn't political" - of course it bloody is. If the team had refused to play, if every western team had refused, what then?

I remember apartheid, I demonstrated against it, against SA participating in sports competitions etc. That had an effect.

What do you mean what then? If every western nation refused to participate in this WC then either FIFA would revoke their memberships and ban them from future FIFA competitions, cancel the WC in Qatar completely, or just went ahead without them and accept this was a bad idea. I'd also imagine there would be some financial implications for those who refused but I'm not familiar with the FIFA membership contract so couldn't say for sure.

In any case FIFA couldn't stop the protesting nations from playing football and if the likes of England, Spain, Italy, France, etc wanted they could set up their own governing body and in all likelihood make FIFA redundant as the money would follow those leagues.

Demonstrating against a country is different than demonstrating against an NGO, for one FIFA don't make any laws (well not criminal ones anyway) and two you can't ban FIFA from a FIFA competition.

It's all a bit academic anyway. The WC will be over in 5 or 6 weeks and then everyone will go back to focusing on domestic competitions.

hesbeingabitofadick · 09/11/2022 19:27

@Brefugee Have a fab time supporting the womens team.

I'd love to go to Canada for the next mens one - hopefully I'll see you there!! Smile

Brefugee · 09/11/2022 19:28

oh Canada? yep, i fancy that. It's a date!

queenofarles · 09/11/2022 19:34

Homosexuality is punishable by up to seven years’ imprisonment in Qatar

ive mentioned this many times , I’ve seen many gays visit Qatar , not one single person was ever arrested or imprisoned , pda is not acceptable for all married, non married , gays , straight.

I have no idea why we can’t accept that. Confused

steaval · 09/11/2022 19:58

queenofarles · 09/11/2022 19:34

Homosexuality is punishable by up to seven years’ imprisonment in Qatar

ive mentioned this many times , I’ve seen many gays visit Qatar , not one single person was ever arrested or imprisoned , pda is not acceptable for all married, non married , gays , straight.

I have no idea why we can’t accept that. Confused

www.hrw.org/news/2022/10/24/qatar-security-forces-arrest-abuse-lgbt-people

Brefugee · 09/11/2022 20:23

Much as I'm against having the event in Qatar - if you are going to go to a country, you have to obey their rules.
I'm not gay, so I can't talk for gay people, but I am married and like to hold hands and occasionally will have a quick kiss with my DH when we're out and about. Except in a country where that isn't their culture. Then we wouldn't do it.

Pretty much like covering up when you go in a church etc. I'm not sure what gay football fans think they want to be doin in Qatar that will drop them in huge shit.

Even while i do agree their HR record isn't stellar, but that shouldn't affect people rocking up to watch a match or two then go home

pikiwop54 · 10/11/2022 14:56

Brefugee · 09/11/2022 20:23

Much as I'm against having the event in Qatar - if you are going to go to a country, you have to obey their rules.
I'm not gay, so I can't talk for gay people, but I am married and like to hold hands and occasionally will have a quick kiss with my DH when we're out and about. Except in a country where that isn't their culture. Then we wouldn't do it.

Pretty much like covering up when you go in a church etc. I'm not sure what gay football fans think they want to be doin in Qatar that will drop them in huge shit.

Even while i do agree their HR record isn't stellar, but that shouldn't affect people rocking up to watch a match or two then go home

There's a difference between not being able to have a quick kiss with your husband and it being illegal to be gay full stop.

Brefugee · 10/11/2022 16:02

My point is: we can't tell other countries what should and shouldn't be illegal in their countries.

If you know it is illegal tobe gay in Qatar, and you are gay, you should really think about going there and if that would be a good idea. The idea that people's private sex lives should be regulated by the state is an alien idea to be but there it is.

This is one of the reasons i don't think the WC should have gone to Qatar, but it's not the most pressing one, since you can go to Qatar and as long as you're not holding hands or snogging your bf on the streets you'll be fine. I can't see there being dozens and dozens of arrests unless there are hordes of drunken people, that i could see happening.

Ponderingwindow · 11/11/2022 15:41

Brefugee · 10/11/2022 16:02

My point is: we can't tell other countries what should and shouldn't be illegal in their countries.

If you know it is illegal tobe gay in Qatar, and you are gay, you should really think about going there and if that would be a good idea. The idea that people's private sex lives should be regulated by the state is an alien idea to be but there it is.

This is one of the reasons i don't think the WC should have gone to Qatar, but it's not the most pressing one, since you can go to Qatar and as long as you're not holding hands or snogging your bf on the streets you'll be fine. I can't see there being dozens and dozens of arrests unless there are hordes of drunken people, that i could see happening.

Like hell we can’t.

We can’t tell other countries the best age to start kids in school or if they should drive on the right or left hand side of the road. We can acknowledge they choose different foods and sometimes eat things that in our homes would be illegal and even considered wrong. We can accept different forms of government.

we can’t stay silent when entire classes of people are subjugated from birth.

do you think we should stay silent about what they are doing to the women of Afghanistan?

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