Not sure whether to be a sahm or not

[Flowerpicker1]

Had 2 under 2. My maternity leave is now coming to an end following the birth of my 2nd dc. Neither dc are in nursery. DH is on a good wage.

Have been given the option not to return to work if I don't want to. Dh can cover us. It would be part not full time anyway.3 days.

Not sure what to do. On one hand I'd love to be there for all of my dcs childhood but on the other I worry if I would cope. We don't have any family or support nearby.

If you work would you rather be a sahm and not put your children in nursery? Or have you done this and loved it/regretted it?

It's a natural byproduct of a truly capitalist society. Kids in school at age 3 (there are MP's who want this), both parents at work all hours, school day from 8 -5, no one slacking.

It's totally valid to not want to buy into this dreamy ideal. It seems almost subversive to want to plough a different furrow, reject that model and just enjoy a few years with your children. I find it astonishing how SAHP are treated on here. Thankfully, it's an attitude that isn't reflected in the real world, in my experience, at least.

The problem is people significantly underestimating the influence of sex based stereotypes, unconscious bias and societal expectations.

The choice to be a SAHP (or to be a WOHP) is not made in a vacuum and we know that all of the above influence career choices. We've not reached a situation where both men and women are making decisions that are free from biases or societal expectations and unfortunately these biases and expectations tend to assume that women will take the hit career wise once they start a family and take on the bulk of childcare. The pandemic was the perfect example of this.

That's not to say that's not the best option for some families but there are a lot of women who have found themselves in that situation by default.

Not just capitalism - women were generally expected to go out of the home to work in the USSR and the USSR consequently had a massive network of nurseries looking after the babies and children of Soviet workers. That’s not most people’s idea of Utopia, either, though. In all honesty, the more capitalist societies appear to be more favourable to the idea of the SAHM (they are another market to sell to, after all) than the more socialist societies.

None of us make decisions in a vacuum no, but there is just as much pressure in women to be working these days as there is to be SAH or part-time. By no means am I advocating a society where all women felt compelled to SAH. My issue is, I'm not convinced the other extreme (ie a society where all mums were compelled to be working full time) would actually be a happier society on a human level, for women or children. Just as there was a backlash against the SAH or 'housewife' model (rightly so), I do think there would be an inevitable backlash if things went too far the other way.

In all honesty, the more capitalist societies appear to be more favourable to the idea of the SAHM (they are another market to sell to, after all) than the more socialist societies

Yep, true enough.

It does seem that most people are enlightened enough to be in favour of doing something you love in life. However, if that happens to be spending a few years with your children while they're young, then women need to justify why they want to do that, and they're constantly found wanting.

I'm a solicitor, and I would give it up in a heart beat to be a SAHM if we could afford.

@TikNeres

No one has to justify anything.

But fairly often sahms insist on everyone valuing their role which results in attempts at justification which nearly always demean the role of working mums

Actually the evidence shows that unconscious biases, societal expectations and stereotypes means that women are take on more childcare responsibilities, and other unpaid caring roles (even when they are working) and during the pandemic women took on the bulk of childcare and homeschooling (again, even if they were working) which had a significant detrimental effect on womens careers.

It might be far more common for women to work (and some might argue that there is societal pressure in this respect) but childcare is still viewed as women's work.... even if this is on an unconscious level.

I'm not advocating for a society where everyone is forced to work but I do advocate for a society where shared parental leave is seen as the norm, where men and women approach their career planning in the same way, with the same concerns instead of a society where women are routinely disadvantaged and discriminated against.

How can you ever really quantify or distinguish 'unconscious bias' as opposed to 'what women want to do' though. If women tell you they want to be with the children they gave birth to, you can't just dismiss them with "oh that's just unconscious bias you silly unaware woman. Get to work and put your children in daycare and stop making a fuss. Men don't make a fuss do they?"

@TikNeres .. but it's not just enjoying the first few years with your child, being with a parent for the first few years is absolutely 100% the best thing for that child!

I'm absolutely shocked by how people talk on here ( not you tik) but it's always,always About them.

What they want, their carers their time etc...why oh why of why have a child??

Why??

It's so incredibly selfish.

Usual caveats aside.

I just don't ever think it should be the default to automatically work straight away.
I think women who want to take longer out should be supported, longer maternity leave, wouldn't that help with child care?
Then they get more hours free at three anyway.

Women who want to work carry on but those who want to take longer do.
Surely that's the civilised approach?

Goodness, you're putting a LOT of words in my mouth and making a huge amount of assumptions!

Firstly, unconscious bias is known to impact career choices and there are a number of tests you can you to identify what your biases are.
EVERYONE has unconscious biases and these impact the way we see the world. I'm talking about men and women having biases and specifically biases towards childcare. People have a whole load of other biases too.

At NO point have I ever told women their choices are simply due to unconscious bias or have I told women that their choices are wrong. But all of our choices are influenced by our deeply ingrained ways of seeing the world. This does result in women being disadvantaged.

As part of my research and my job I have spoken to hundreds of women about their career choices and it is clear that biases, societal expectations and stereotypes influenced their decisions. That doesn't mean they made the wrong decision or that they would have made different decisions but it's not incorrect to acknowledge these influences.

I'm not saying being a SAHM is wrong. Just like me choosing to work isn't wrong. I am self aware enough to understand that my choice to work has been influenced by my way of seeing the world.

And your comments are incredibly rude and insulting.

Who on earth thinks it's acceptable to question why someone r has chosen to have a child?

Interestingly, if all women decided not to work we'd be fucked as a society because women make up the vast majority of teachers, health care professionals and carers.

@Puddywoodycat

How long did your oh debate being a sahp?

Or was it OK for it to be the default for him?

If so, why oH why was he so selfish? Why did he want a child?

Men and women can’t plan their careers in exactly the same way, though, as women will always be disadvantaged to a certain extent - that women go through the pregnancy and childbirth and produce the breast milk is not an unconscious bias, it’s biological fact. There are therefore periods of time when it is the woman alone who is obliged to take on the physical changes, potentially significant risks and injuries, and to go through the hormonal changes and make the final decisions on how their baby is fed, etc. All of this can have knock on effects in the workplace, whether women and men like it or not. It seems somewhat like an unconscious bias to me, therefore, to think there can ever be a truly fair and equal share of parenting, as the woman is always stuck with a particular stage of the process and the one more likely to be made ill by it, or to need allowances made for it. So women will always need extra protections afforded to them in the workplace, whether or not men step in at a later stage to take on half of the responsibility. And some women don’t appreciate being the ones who take on those extra risks only then to be forced to hand over to someone else before they feel ready. The fact is, some people are ready sooner than others.

It it really necessary to question women (and men, no less) who decide not to spend time with their child in the first few years as selfish. Don't think the lame 'Usual caveats aside' gives you a free pass.

Perhaps I have to go into another set of 10 posts asking for the '100% proof' that never comes.

Be happy that you got to make the choice you did. Perhaps turn the mirror on your own partner and ask why he had a child. And hopefully the female dentist who does your root canal wasn't so selfish as to leave her child at home so you could get treatment.

I am all for shared parenting. The biological aspects even out in the first year after the baby is born. It will do society and women in general good to hand over the child to the father for a part of their maternity leave so it is not always women being disadvantaged in the workplace. Fathers will come to understand what hard work it is to be at home with the child and appreciate the woman's childcare contribution at home better. Fathers who 'love' to work can implement better policies to support working women, rather than assume the default is man going gangbusters at work with a woman at home facilitating. Women have protection under the law for pregnancy, maternity leave and flexible working.

Imvho, society is currently set up to punish entirely unnecessarily time spent out of the workplace, regardless of the reasons for the absence. There is a massive unconscious bias against people who have been SAHP for a few years, but particularly against SAHMs. SAHMs are far too often treated as though their brains have turned to mush just because they spent more time with their children than WOHM did for a few years. It’s really not that easy to “catch stupid.” A society that genuinely didn’t want to waste talent and potential should be more enlightened in the way it treats people returning to the workplace.

Many women stay at home for longer than three months and then go back to being your dentist and doctor.

The point is ...the selfish aspect.

I see so many posts which is all about the poster and never ever, what's actually best for the child.

The point is the amount of thought about the baby in the choices the parent's, made.

It's becoming a worrying default that it's the usual norm to have a baby and go to full time work quite soon with no thought to the baby because it's just assumed that nursery is great.

Go and work in one .

Yes blue shoes usual caveats very much apply!!

Of course women need protections in the workplace to compensate for pregnancy and child birth but beyond that there isn't any reason why women and men shouldn't be able to participate in the labour market in the same way. It they don't.

There is some evidence that women plan their careers with the anticipation of needing flexibility and family friendly work in a way that men just don't.

I agree, that is a perfectly valid viewpoint and it works well for some people.

@Puddywoodycat

Us working was / is best for our kids.

No question

Many women stay at home for longer than three months and then go back to being your dentist and doctor.

They don't generally take years and years out of the workplace and then return to being your doctor or dentist though.

Just like I couldn't take years away from my job and expect to return as though nothing happened.

I'm not acknowledging the selfish comment as it's goady and inflammatory.

@TheMoops - some people don’t even train to be dentists or doctors until they are in their 30s or 40s.

As I said I think maternity leave should far longer.
The free hours kick in at three anyway.

This would help with child care costs and support women who want to be with their babies.

It would also help to bridge that gap between being out of the work place as seen as strange. ..that would allow proper choice and thought for women who want to stay at home longer.

Women who want to work can carry on regardless.

Childhood years are incredibly short.
They are a mere flash in long working lives of people who have 2.4 children.

I believe our society should be looking at more at flexibility around this area for people with younger children not less.
Quality of life, supporting your own child not farming it out.

I don't want to be like America really.