Not sure whether to be a sahm or not

[Flowerpicker1]

Had 2 under 2. My maternity leave is now coming to an end following the birth of my 2nd dc. Neither dc are in nursery. DH is on a good wage.

Have been given the option not to return to work if I don't want to. Dh can cover us. It would be part not full time anyway.3 days.

Not sure what to do. On one hand I'd love to be there for all of my dcs childhood but on the other I worry if I would cope. We don't have any family or support nearby.

If you work would you rather be a sahm and not put your children in nursery? Or have you done this and loved it/regretted it?

Same point. What is your evidence?

I don’t think they are?

It’s common sense that it’s more beneficial for a 9 month old baby to be with a loving parent/family member rather than in a nursery 5 days a week.

I don’t know anyone in real life who would argue with that.

I say that as a mother who works.

I won’t deny that because it’s obvious. I won’t pretend to a SAHM that them being with their baby is no different to a nursery worker being with their baby. There is a difference. But I have bills to pay like the majority of the population.
It is what it is.

Evidence of what?

You don't need to me a scientist to know full-well that, assuming there is no mental illness, abuse, severe PND or other extenuating factors. a baby is going to be better off with her / his mother, rather than a woman on £9 per hour.

I had the option of becoming a SAHM. DH was supportive and his salary is decent. It was a tough decision but I decided to go back to work and I don’t regret it.

I didn’t realise it when I was off, but I wasn’t using my brain at all, and going back meant I could. It was good to have adult company and talk about adult things, and to have a bit of a break from it all.

The issue was DS hated nursery and I felt terrible, which also made it harder to stick with my decision. But he’s now settled and we’re all happy. I’m also still breastfeeding him despite him being in nursery.

And I am not saying being in a nursery damages children. I'm not saying that at all. I'm simply saying that it's ridiculous to pretend there's no difference between a mother and a staff keyworker.

I am of the opinion that the effect of using childcare and not using childcare with all the caveats and assumptions you make is so marginal that I fail to see any point with insisting that mother is best. Is it? Fathers? Grandparents?

You must be reading a different thread to me, it seems to be quite common

Is the op just about babies?

blueshoes I had started working with YP aged 11 to 18 in care who had been in the system for several years. These children had no contact with birth parents. Several parents were serving long prison terms for serious abuse. These children showed classic behavioural traits of children who had suffered early childhood attachment trauma.

More recently I've met with YP who have opted into residential care following discharge from psych units. These YP present with classic BPD traits and behaviours. Eventually the LA "concedes" to a full care order and shared PA. Mainly because of the dynamic between child and parents as instigated by the children. This dynamic is not the normal rejection of the parent as seen in typical teenagers seeking to create their own identity. This is quite maladaptive, manipulative push pull behaviours that leave myself and other staff actually quite empathetic towards the parent.

The chronologies are different. In the latter group we are talking two sides of a4, in the former its often 'war and peace' In the latter group there is no history of significant neglect or abuse, the children are from stable home environments that are not socially or economically deprived. In my experience these parents work, and many have professional jobs. In the first group you see very disorganised families with no work.

I'm not suggesting that women shouldn't work. Most of us have to.

I'm seeing an increase in very mentally unwell YP who display BPD traits and behaviours, and from working with them can assure you their presentation is similar to that of the former group. There is some tentative research to see if there is a link between BPD (emergent EUPD in teenagers) and early childhood attachment. More worryingly though is the fact that these children are receiving a diagnosis of personality disorder.

I don't think individual women choosing to use institutional forms of childcare are responsible for this. I do think though that women face both the ideological and material compulsion to work irrespective of whether this is in the interests of children. I do also take aim at how our false value system under capitalism creates a situation where being a sahm is denigrated and seen as being of little value. Capitalism no longer meets the cost of reproducing future labour, and into this we see wages having stagnated for 30 years, why not.....because it works very well to have the value creating capacity of two workers for the former exchange value of one. OK, women (middle class feminists) fought for liberal goals of equality, with equality being condensed to the right to work for equal pay. But this demand was only met because of material changes to the economy around 1967. What came first? the demands of women or changes within the economy?

Anyway to each their own, and in another 50 years or so we will probably be scratching our collective heads and saying "what the fuck were we thinking" because it's highly unlikely that future changes to how we work will continue the need for everyone to be glued to their desks.

In fact one issue coming into view is how are we going to care for increasing numbers of vulnerable elderly parents. Not just in terms of labour supply but cost.

Sorry @MiniTheMinx thanks for the long explanation but I don't see proof of cause and effect here. You are seeing a very specific portion of society which is not indicative of wider society. Unless you have evidence of what is causing these personality disorders, we can pontificate to the end of time.

blueshoes why are one third of YP aged between 12 and 18 self harming? Why are so many children so emotionally dystegulated? why are mainstream schools struggling to educate children who display extreme behaviours? why am I seeing more older YP who reject their own family in favour of being looked after? why are schools emplying more and more behaviour support staff in mainstream?

Many children are presenting behaviour of emotional dysregulation, and I'm not even considering DC who have an earlier diagnosis of SEN. Why are so many children diagnosed and labelled? Do you not think its concerning that distressed YP are being given stigmatising diagnosis of personality disorders?

If so many YP have issues with emotional dysregulation, why do you think that is?

@MiniTheMinx why do YOU think that is? What is the point of coming on this thread and raising these issues as if it is working parents that are to blame. All working parents know that people love to cast the aspersion that institutional childcare is storing up mental health issues for dcs.

Forget the distraction of capitalism. Do YOU think that the answer is for mothers to stay at home with their dcs in the early years? If so, present your evidence. Otherwise you are just being disingenuous and frankly dishonest.

@MiniTheMinx So no self-harming dc ever had a SAHP? Can you answer that without qualification.

Why do so many people assume children under four are raised just as well by disinterested, underpaid, and poorly trained adults in congregate care than by good enough mothers or extended family? A occasional story hour or messy play is plenty for under threes.

Taking some time from paid work is better for attachment bonding. It’s only a few years out of the workplace, and most people can catch up. Working when much of your salary goes on childcare and life is very stressful is not wise. Most men won’t lean in equally, and women need to plan around this.

You’d be nuts to actively opt to be a SAHM in the current economic climate.

Out loud today with my 13-montb-old I spontaneously said, "Mummy doesn't want to work anymore." It just came out of my mouth... 🤷‍♀️

Something else to consider....

Why not take these few years when the kids are young to think about what job you would find fulfilling, and retrain?

I'm retraining at the moment, the course runs one weekend a month, and there are equivalent courses that run one evening a week. There are some careers you can retrain into purely from home learning too, which would maybe be easier to work around the family.

Or if that's too much then maybe try your hand at a few short courses/CPD type things to get a feel for different industries and retrain when kids are in primary school?

I was a SAHM for a few years. I'm not against SAHPs. However, although I was very happy, i felt my confidence shrinking and my world becoming smaller. Although I did accrue national insurance contributions which help my entitlement to the state pension, I wasn't putting anything into my own private pension. This is something I'm now heavily prioritising. My DH has a good pension, but I don't want to have to rely on that.

This.

It's a massive vulnerability in normal times, one that some see as worth the risk and (many more) others don't understand the risk. Right now though it's far too high a risk to even contemplate. Even if your income goes to paying childcare, at least there should be pension contributions and in a couple of years you'll have had job progression, or at least something on your CV in comparison to nothing on CV and trying to renter the workplace at below your current level.

I did both, with my elder two I worked part time and with my youngest I was a sahp. I found the balance of work and home hard, it feels like you are juggling lots of balls all the time . It would also depend how good your dh is around the house, who stays home when one of the kids are sick etc. I did enjoy being a sahp for a couple of years , we went out every day to playgroup or park etc, I had plenty of 'mum' friends it also meant I was able to support my mum who was ill. But the lack of money sucks a bit and my husband got use to me doing most of housework/mental load so even though I'm working now (part time) I still do majority.

From your posts, I feel that you need something for you other than just being a mother but that your current place of employment doesn’t offer you what you need.

Id look at a couple of options. One is to stick with your current job part time while you look for something else. If you have some flexibility to wfh on one of your 3 days that could make a big difference. Another is to find another job. I would look for something that is in an environment that you would enjoy. It doesn’t need to be a career goal job but I think you would find it easier to go to work if it’s somewhere you would enjoy.

Heres sone other things to take into account:
I always say on these threads that you need to think long term. There are lots of posts by parents looking for part time flexible work. Those roles tend to go to parents who already work at a company, have proved themselves and want to change their hours.
I also say that flexibility when your DC are at school is more important than when they are in nursery. When they are in school it’s you they want. You to come to the nativity, assembly etc. Working (even part time) while they are in nursery so that you have that kind of flexibility when they start school can pay dividends. It’s not as easy to take years off work then start back and be able to duck out to kiddie events.

And finally I always say that their dad should be the one to take carers leave for the first 6 months after their mum returns to work after maternity leave. It relieves the pressure and allows you to move back into your role with less stress. You can share carers leave after that.

@MiniTheMinx

I work with children in care who have suffered early childhood trauma, however I'm seeing more and more children coming into care later from family backgrounds that are by most standards considered normal, nurturing and not socially deprived. More young people are coming into care, receiving full care orders having arrived via psych units. No history of significant neglect or abuse. These YP display classic signs of disordered attachment but are being given tentative diagnosis of EUPD and autism. Always late diagnosis of autism. Colleagues and myself see little evidence of autism traits. CAMHs are breaking under the weight of demand. No one wants to discuss where this tsunami is coming from.

Have you seen any evidence that this arises as a direct result of a larger proportion of women working?

I'm not denying that demand for mental health services among young people is soaring but I have yet to see any evidence that conclusively shows this is due to greater participation of women in the labour market. There's a bunch of other potential factors which are often cited for this too. What makes you you sure this is attributable to more working mums?

I didn't stop using my brain or talking to adults when I was a sahm, this attitude that childcare is in some way 'less than' a paid position, is very sneery. Lots of paid jobs are bloody monotonous

We would all like that but welcome to the real world of paying bills and feeding your kids.

Personally I would stay working if possible part time especially at the moment.

I'd say yes ❤️ it's the best thing I've done here. Mine are 4 and 1 at the moment. They're little for such a short time. I'm happy with my decision as:

*I get to experience all their firsts
*they get confidence in time knowing that you're there when they need you rather than forced into separation
*enjoy exploring new places with them
*childcare costs along with commuting and other work related costs would have made me working make us only marginally better off
*I don't need to retain skills on a career. Planning a career change when my little one goes to school
*I get a large portion of house jobs and errands done in the day with the kids so the evenings we can enjoy family time or me or husband can take turns to take time out doing something out the house

It would be very difficult (in the near future anyway) to produce a definitive study to prove a higher incidence of mental health issues in young people is attributable to the trend for babies / toddlers to be spending most of their waking lives in daycare. So many other potentially contributing factors would have occurred in the interim. But just because you can't directly prove something as a negative, doesn't mean you should just assume it's a positive, or even a neutral.

Nobody wants to 'blame' working women for anything because they have to make very difficult decisions. They're damned if they do, damned if they don't. It's no good constantly going on about "what about the men?" because men don't experience the emotional wrench women do. Look at these threads. Hours and hours of women wrangling over working v not working. It speaks for itself. Women are having to make intensely stressful choices. This can manifest as turning on each other. There is nothing remotely equivalent on a male forum because men (generally) are not the main attachment figures from birth.