Do you agree with the nurses strike?

[borderterrierr]

Guardian reporting that the rcn strike has resulted in a yes vote and we'll be striking before Christmas.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/05/nurses-across-uk-vote-to-strike-in-first-ever-national-action?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

Patient's emergency care will be protected but it's a strike vote

While I agree anecdotally some are leaving due to pay, the NHS is recruiting nurses faster than they are leaving. Nursing student numbers are increasing

Yes from India, Philippines, Nepal, Kenya - countries that need their own healthcare staff.

This brings about its own problems in language, skill sets, at least when we were in the EU, we had equivalence.

Drop out rates in AHP/Nursing degree courses is shocking.

@Discovereads the more you post, the more you highlight your complete lack of awareness of the actual issues facing the frontline.

You can pick every official figure under the sun to show the forum but the conclusions you deduce show increasing ignorance to the realities facing the current NHS workforce.

Havent rtft but I am 100% behind nurses.
The job these people do need to be done by be people who are well rested, full stomachs, secure housing.
Mps will have to expense porridge for breakfast at 20p instead of the £50 they currently claim.

Exasperatednow · 05/11/2022 20:22
Yes. Government has uncapped bankers bonuses. We value people who push paper and electronic money around more than people who do a job who make a difference to society. We've got something very wrong..

The bankers are not being paid by the tax payer so its hardly the same thing.

Yes, I support them.

@PhillySub

Yes they are

I know loads of extremely senior, highly skilled nurses who have taken retirement earlier than they planned because of the combination of 10 years of below-inflation pay rises, the pandemic, the lack of support from management, and the stress of not being able to do your job properly and instead providing sub-standard crisis only nursing has just left them burnt out, stressed and anxious and it just wasn't worth staying.
I support the strike 100% I wish it had happened years ago then maybe we wouldn't be in this position, but nurses would never have voted to strike previously.

The pandemic, the sacrifices they made, and the disdain shown by the government towards them afterward with another pay cut is the straw that broke the camel's back. Nurses have woken up and realised that unless they do something then it's only going to get worse and they now have very little to lose.

100 % agree

Really? so we never added 100s of billions to the national debt after they fucked up the world economy in 2008, a debt we are all paying for through our taxes right now.

Most of these bankers wouldn't even have jobs if they were truly private businesses.

Of course we had too bail the banks out but the point is, we value property and assets over people - hence no one bats an eyelid when a banker earns a million but shock horror if a nurse, who the banker would rely on to live if involved in a serious accident, demands a decent salary.

It is indeed a messed up world.

While I agree anecdotally some are leaving due to pay, the NHS is recruiting nurses faster than they are leaving. Nursing student numbers are increasing

As a nursing lecturer I kind of agree (although last year we didn’t fill our course for the first time in ages). But mainly recruitment to nursing degrees isn’t an issue. For a 17yo starting a degree then 27k or whatever the starting salary is sounds quite a lot. For a non skilled minimum wage worker 27k may be an increase. For some more mature students they may be so drawn to nursing that they’re happy to take a pay cut.

so on the face of it you could argue that pay isn’t the issue. However from decades in and around the nhs I’d say you’re wrong. Because once these students either during their training or as NQs realise what the conditions are actually like the6 soon decide the wage is not enough to make them want to put up with working like that! Before they actually start training they have a romanticised idea about what it will be like. Even the ones who have worked as a hcsw in hospital before, come to me in tears saying they didn’t realise what it would be like. maybe if the salary was 32k more might decide ok, it’s not great but I’ll stay, then as retention improves, conditions improve, people are happier, staffing levels better, better patient care.

Yes. I don't agree with the rail strike because it's trying to hang onto jobs that aren't needed any more. Nurses are desperately needed, so of course their conditions should improve to attract more nurses.

Absolutely.

Quite simply, I believe in every worker having the right to strike and exercising that right as a last resort. Going on strike costs the worker loss of earnings so it is not something they do for shits and giggles. If an employer does not want their workforce out on strike then they have a simple solution to that - negotiate a fair settlement.

@walkinginsunshinekat Actually it may please you to learn that the removal of the bonus cap on bankers means they'll be earning far less this year and probably next. The effect of the cap was that base pay was hugely inflated, and bonuses accounted for a much smaller proportion of overall pay. As a result of very poor results on the FTSE and a lack of IPOs in London, the people you refer to as bankers (you really mean the tiny number of deal-heading people in the square mile) will drop their base pay back to maybe 200k and will earn absolutely diddly squat on top. Still a lot of money, obviously, but it'll mean they have to sell up and take their kids out of Wycombe Abbey etc. It'll also mean a lot less for the public purse, but I realise you just think rich = bad.

@Cherryblossoms85 I couldn't give a stuff about banker bonuses or how much they earn BUT i do take issue with people who say its a private businesses and we aren't paying for it, when thats incorrect.

Presumably salary increases they had when the cap was in place were consolidated? and they'll keep them going forward? as per any other wage increase, other wise they were just bonuses?
Tax take should there fore stay the same.

There is nothing wrong with people being rich, people can be bad whether they are rich or poor.

There is no equation (from me) that says Rich = Bad, you ve got the wrong end of the stick if you re trying to beat me with that.

Still a lot of money, obviously, but it'll mean they have to sell up and take their kids out of Wycombe Abbey etc. It'll also mean a lot less for the public purse, but I realise you just think rich = bad.

Actually that would be great, wouldn’t it, because apparently higher wages ‘fuel inflation’ so if they have to sell and downgrade, that’s a positive for everyone.

Or is it only a positive when nurses can’t afford things?

@walkinginsunshinekat Sorry maybe I misunderstood. Yes, we all globally paid for the GFC. A lot of people were also massively overleveraged particularly in the US, as a result of very poor regulation that allowed the market to spiral like it did, and to create tranches of debt etc. It also turned governments into the underwriters of private businesses, which only accelerated with the Covid situation, and that will continue. As a result, we can indeed expect governments (i.e. taxpayers) to take a much greater interest in business activities they're basically insuring. There is an interesting research paper I went to the talk on suggesting that central banks will be increasingly toothless, as they cannot raise interest rates all that much before governments have to step in to prevent mass bankruptcies and the political fallout from them (I'm a trading process expert, not a banker, so I struggled to fully understand how we don't still run out of taxpayer money).

Perhaps I didn't explain the bonus issue well. Before the bonus cap, bankers usually earned 200%+ of their salary in bonuses on top. Actually getting that bonus relied on closing an IPO, delisting, merger etc. on the FTSE. Now, they cannot earn more than 100% of their base pay in bonuses. The effect is that mediocre bankers show up from NY, earn 400k basic plus 300k bonus (let's say) for showing up and doing a mediocre job. BUT with the cap removed, they're down to 200k basic and potentially about 100k bonus because they cannot close any deals in a shrinking market. My heart doesn't exactly bleed, but it's a worry for the public purse.

All the deal-making is leaving London. We have a hugely undiversified economy with a huge tax take (both corp, stamp duty and individual taxes) from financial services, and yet we've utterly fucked it over during Brexit by not even bothering with passporting rules. That fucks us all over. Removing the cap may incentivise more US banks to move dealmakers to London, as it reduces fixed costs compared to the EU. Still doesn't solve the fact we keep losing tech IPOs to other markets, but gives some hope of more tax to support public services.

@Cherryblossoms85 Fair enough.

Yes i get foreign workers but surely UK based top people would have had a salary increase to compensate loss of bonus? thats what i understood happened.
They wouldn't lose that unless non consolidated, though i guess in a shrinking sector, they may well lose their jobs.

Yes 100% on Brexit, terrible for the 'city, FS, LS and UK plc, not to mention a strong Europe, able to stand up & compete with US China.

btw i'm a firm believer in capitalism but with a social heart i.e very good regulation & social protection other wise we just go back to the 19th C.

Which is why i support whatever action nurses and AHPs take.

I must be living in a parallel universe when £27k starting salary is considered a shockingly low wage.
As usual, this thread has become an echo chamber of indignant nurses and sycophantic supporters.
Unless you agree that:
A. No profession works harder than nurses
B. No profession has any worth apart from nursing
C. Every other profession allows you to work from home and not do very much of worth
D. A salary range of £27-47k for a ward nurse is pitiful
E. No other profession ever works unpaid overtime or misses breaks, ever
F. All nurses are beyond criticism
And G. Apparently nurses are unique in having to pay back student loans, not being able to afford housing and having to pay to park their car at work.

No criticism or critical thought allowed. Move on.

@walkinginsunshinekat My understanding is that the pay structure will change completely, so they will lose the existing base pay offer and have their employment contracts redrawn.
I think what we're really missing is competent politicians capable of drafting good legislation that does not have unintended consequences, and able to govern without endless kneejerk reactions and random u-turns. I have absolutely no idea what the funding model for the NHS should be, or how we can afford it, but there hasn't been a coherent plan from the government in at least 5 years, and it shows. Not sure Hunt's "reforms" did anything noticeably positive either.

@Katypp

It's helpful if your criticisms are based in fact to start with

@Katypp noone has claimed those things. You’re dyskinesia of the nhs/ nurses is clouding what you see.

• dislike even !

@Katypp noone is claiming any of those things.

The point you’re spectacularly missing is that nurses are absolutely essential to our health service and there is a huge shortage of nurses at the moment which is causing a downwards spiral in working conditions and staffing levels. Unless they are paid better, we won’t be able to attract more into the profession or convince those in the profession to stay. What then?!

Comparing their pay to other professions is meaningless as are all of the other points you have made. We can’t have an NHS without nurses so either we get behind them and pay them an amount that retains them or they continue to leave and our health service disintegrates

I'm sorry but I agree with all this.

No need to be sorry, that’s your opinion. It won’t however, help staff the nhs.