Do you agree with the nurses strike?

[borderterrierr]

Guardian reporting that the rcn strike has resulted in a yes vote and we'll be striking before Christmas.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/05/nurses-across-uk-vote-to-strike-in-first-ever-national-action?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

Patient's emergency care will be protected but it's a strike vote

Can I ask would everyone be willing to pay higher taxes if it meant that nurses and other NHS staff could have better pay and more staff to enable better working conditions?

Take. Home. Pay.

Not gross. I have made this point to you numerous times now.

@Katypp

You are also extremely ignorant to what nurses actually do stating newly qualified nurses dont make clinical decisions is incorrect and massively dismissive of the work they do on a daily basis.

@Overthebow - you will be paying higher tax anyway for the two years. It is the Government's choice what it chooses to do with it. Generally, they haven't been bothered to pay nurses and other NHS staff well so the issue of tax is moot. Even when times were good, no proper increase.

Yes completely. My mum was a nurse before she retired. I know the crappy conditions that she worked in and the expectations that were put on her.
I can only imagine they have got worse since she retired. They deserve fair wages and working conditions. If we look after them, we will keep them.

Completely, they deserve better working conditions and pay. We need them (as we all acknowledged during the pandemic when we were banging our pots & pans out the windows) and the sooner the government realised that the better.

Why does no one ever mention HCAs? HCAs are the people who are looking after you most when you are in the hospital and they really are very low paid.

I worked as a HCA for many years before I began my training, in acute settings where HCA's had perhaps more responsibility than a lot of other ward settings. Whilst the pay is rubbish, they are also mostly untrained, they are registered with a professional body, the arent accountable for decisions made, infact they don't make any decisions clinical or otherwise. Yes, they do an immensely important job, and are often frontline with patients and deserve more money and recognition, absolutely, but the role I have in patient care is 10 times that I had as a HCA, even one where I was responsible for all pre and post op obs, bloods, ecg, scans, pre and post op screening tests, fluid balancing, alongside standard personal care and assistance, 1-1 care, chaperoning etc. As a HCA I would escalate to a nurse to make decisions on care and then step back and move to the next. I rarely had to stay late and my work was almost always completed, and if it wasn't it would fall on the nurse not me to justify why it wasn't done and hand over or complete the work themselves, My role now as a nurse is much more involved in all aspects of patient care.

It isn’t though. We all know we’ll be paying higher tax to fill the money hole that there currently, but we will all need to pay more if more money is needed for public sector wages such as nurses. Yes there should have been better increases previously but there wasn’t and it has to be looked at in the current financial situation.

personally, I would be happy to pay higher tax so that the NHS could be properly funded and staff to get a decent pay rise.

Nurses striking is market forces in action. Can’t keep your workforce for the pay and conditions you’re offering? What’s your first logical step? What would you advise a private business owner who was consistently unable to recruit and retain staff? Up the wage or improve conditions. Add in the terrifying impact of not having staff on the patients and it’s a complete no-brainer. In no other part of the labour market would you attempt to retain staff by browbeating and guilt-tripping them. It’s not as if as a country we could cope without nurses, so we need to grow up and accept that things need to change.

Apply that to doctors, teachers, social workers, dentists, care workers etc etc - we ought to start by working out how many of the essential professions are needed for our population size and start working towards actually having the right number of all these people without whom we would be truly fucked.

I understand the level of decision-making nurses have. But as a patient, it is the HCAs who do most of the care. And they are underpaid for their work but are never part of these conversations.

@antelopevalley hcas are eligible to strike. They were eligible to vote. They will also get a pay rise because of this.

Again depends on the setting. My current ward HCA's don't do obs, they don't do bloods, screening, the don't do blood sugar testing, the don't do anything other than personal care. So if you don't require 2 hourly turns, full assistance with washing and feeding, or pad changes, the contact with HCA's is minimal, I as the nurse do everything for the majority of patients under my care.

I don't think that people will support higher rates of tax for the public sector. They vote conservative. I agree with the idea, but people do not vote for it.

The nursing profession is just doing what it must. There will be no decent pay for them unless they do this. Railway workers, barristers, they all know you have to hold this very right wing government's feet to the flame to get them to pay up. I support them, it has been a long time coming.

I don't think that people will support higher rates of tax for the public sector. They vote conservative. I agree with the idea, but people do not vote for it.

Have you seen the polls? The Tories are headed for electoral wipeout.

Even if the Tories are heading for wipeout, British people only vote for an increased tax take when the situation is so dire that there is literally no alternative. It takes a war or a national breakdown of services for that to happen.

We are a cheap people who want scandi services and low tax. So that means nurses are stuffed by how people vote.

Emotive claptrap....really.

Try being in a working environment where you're doing 2 or 3 peoples jobs due to staff shortages. The job requires you to be on the ball...all the time...no mistakes because if there is a mistake you could harm someone, get reprimanded/disciplined, lose your PIN or at worst harm or kill someone, worse case scenario. On top of routine care you have phonecalls, patients doctors relatives all wanting a bit of you, which is fine providing none of your patients are actively dying or very unwell, maybe 2 of them are very unwell, at the same time, but 4 of them aren't that great and might become very unwell, youre nearly scared to think about the other patients you dont had much time to see because of whats happening with your 2 really sick patients. The ward is short of staff and you have twice as many patients to look after. Then Mrs Smith asks to use the commode but she has a drip up and is very breathless and is very slow it takes you 20 minutes to sort her out, she asks for painkillers, the phone rings you need to speak to the doctor about wee Lizzie as she has deteriorated she needs a drip put up for her increasing heart failure but you need to do her obs and put in a catheter before you start the drip. The consultant arrives and wants to do a ward round. It's also drug round time, which takes ages but while you're there a doctor from another team phones you back about another patient. A dementia patient calls out and you have to try to pacify them. Takes 15 minutes and you have to give her a sedative. Then it's visiting and some family members want to speak to you about their relative. You realise your sick patient is getting sicker and remember you forgot to give Mrs Smith her painkillers. Nurse phones in sick for the next days shift so thats 3 nurses down tomorrow. The Diabetes nurse arrives in at the same time as the physio. The physio wants to know about the discharge arrangements for Mary so she can arrange equipment and physio outpatients. The diabetes nurse has changed an elderly patient from tablets to insulin, she will need educated on the pen the use of the glucometer as well as her family and what to do in the event of a hypo or hyper. She will need the new insulin ordered from pharmacy but the number is busy. Doctor Proctor says theyre aiming to discharge her in the next day or so so district nursing needs to be organised as the lady has no family through the day, and an ambulance will need to be arranged for.discharge. He also asks you about Lizzie while youre on the phone and what her obs are like and if you feel she needs more anti-hypertensives, and when she last had them, he needs some bloods done on her asap and can you arrange a porter to take Josephine for a chest xray. Its gets to 6.30 pm you haven't had your break or lunch break, and you haven't had a pee probably because you haven't had a drink since you came onto shift. The tablets have arrived for Lindsay to go home, you need to go over them with her so she knows when to take them and possible side effects, and the injection technique for her blood thinners. The ward sister says Mrs Sunak can be discharged tomorrow and needs her meds and ambulance ordered, discharge letter organised and District nursing referral made out. There is also a new admission on its way from A+E and it will be your patient. The alarm has gone off the dementia patient has fallen and spilled water all over the floor, you go down to make sure she hasn't broken any bones and thankfully she hasnt but damn you'll have to fill.out a very time consuming incident report. Management ring to say they haven't found anyone to cover the shift tomorrow could you do an extra shift.

Other jobs...go to work, arrive on time, sit at desk, work on computer, answer and make calls, write some things. Send a few emails. Have break. More of same, forgot to send report to manager who is very annoyed it isnt ready so you will have to rejig work to fit that in. Have lunch, more of same, finish report, leave on time.

The above statement re other jobs is demeaning as it assumes every other job is easy by comparison which would pxss me off . So don't assume that a band 5 is 'just a nurse with no responsibility' because theyre just a band 5. They are responsible the minute they get their PIN, ie day one. They will gather experience skills and knowledge over the years but it doesn't mean that they are incapable. The difference is that as much as you want to compare roles there is one gaping difference in paperwork vs lives. As another poster stated pressure /stress/ distraction are all the perfect environment for errors and errors in healthcare have significantly more impact for all concerned. Of course community staff are even more isolated, if you think it's hard to get a gp as a member of the public it's no better as a community nurse !!!

There are so many nurses leaving, does that not speak volumes ???? They have had enough, the above representation is only a tiny snapshot of what goes on. I know of one environment locally that was 8 staff down, more than one error was made that day. A colleague who was responsible for one drug error left their work in tears despite no lasting injury to the patient. It is a frequent occurrence among the staff to leave in tears. This should not be the norm or acceptable in any healthcare environment. So if it is Emotive its because nurses are responsible professionals with feelings... hardly ...claptrap. The next time you complain about something how demeaning and insulting would be for you to be accused of emotive claptrap !!!

There are not enough staff on wards. That is the real issue.

@lolalouisa84 Have you ever been a patient? If you do not require personal care - and many patients do - you will be making any requests to HCAs. From water in your jug, to wanting to talk to the Dr. HCAs frequently do obs as well and empty and measure catheters. Often the only contact with nurses many patients have is drugs round and procedures such as changing lines.

There are not enough nurses on any wards, but most patients have most contact with HCAs.

This. It doesn’t really matter if the public support it or not. The government are going to lose this battle. A safety critical and essential service is going to be withdrawn.

To those of you asking what it will mean in practice- this is to be decided but we will be obligated to maintain a life and limb service. So think of a Christmas Day service, with minimal staffing in wards, A&E and ITU. Elective procedures will stop. So this means non emergency operations, chemotherapy and other outpatient care stopped. Waiting lists are at an all time high so the government will be under a significant amount of pressure to resolve this dispute quickly.

Im not sure what the outcome will be, as nurses are on the same pay scales as all non medical and dental staff. The government presumably won’t also be wanting to raise the salaries of admin and AHP staff. So whether nursing will be removed from the agenda for change pay scale, or targeted pay increases made, will be interesting.

Yes, yes and yes again. I wouldn’t notice an extra 1p on income tax and it would raise more than enough.

Depends on the ward, My HCA's dont do obs, catheters, or anything like that. Patients on my ward are so unstable and can deteriorate very quickly, therefore only trained staff deal with anything clinical such as and even as basic sounding as output. Most patients have little contact with HCA's as they arent allowed. This is turn means deteriorating patients are picked up faster, and necessary interventions arent delayed.

My HCA role in a different area was much more involved, we did everything, a lot really, looking back, was outside of my scope of knowledge, but I did it as nurses were so busy with other tasks. I did a 1 hour training course on obs, 2 hours on venipuncture. Compared to the knowledge gained from a 3 year degree, HCA's shouldn't have these tasks placed on their shoulders and my current ward has it right. Is it harder as a nurse having to do It all, absolutely.

HCA's taking on these tasks should be trained, they should be band 3 as a minimum, unfortunately, they are not. Yes i agree in some areas they have more patient contact, but they shouldn't as untrained, unregistered staff.

@overthebow absolutely I would but I expect it to go hand in hand with far higher standards of care and professionalism.

My interactions over the last 30 years have not resulted in me observing particularly high standards. Mostly maternity, outpatients, A&E. Some care has been outstanding: but one birth was botched, two were great - for the first on Christmas Day the ward was v quiet more midwives than patients and they were not willing to be helpful. Paediatric A&E always good, adult A&E particularly my local trust (where the service is the only one remaining that still requires improvement) is hideous but it is good at other local hospitals. I have found nurses in outpatients poor across the board - I have a friend who is a Director of People at an NHS Trust and she says that's where the nurses bordering capability are put as it's where they can do least harm.

I genuinely think a significant problem is that the HCAs (many of whom are excellent) are dressed like nurses and for the most part we, the patients, have no idea they are not a nurse so when a question receives a shrug, we tend to think it's nurse who can't be bothered rather than someone who really and truly isn't in a position to help. Some standardisation across uniforms in hospitals would be very helpful.

Generally I find organisation in hospitals when I interact with them to be shambolic and communication to be very poor. It is really difficult to have a proper two way conversation with someone whose grasp of English is poor but that happens in London at every level from HCA to Consultant. I find too often when dealing with NHS staff I am spoken to as though I am extremely dim and very sharply. I have before now intervened when staff have behaved outrageously to a patient who is clearly vulnerable, in pain, not well educated and not white.

I think there is a London/Home County issue, in some of the teaching hospitals and particularly in those that are more "local". It is very different when compared to the rest of the country notwithstanding maternity services in East Kent. I would be more sympathetic to the plight of nurses pay if nurse managers and hospital hierarchies had not allowed such situations to prevail for so many years without a dismissal in sight.

What grade are health visitors? Based on my experience of poor and conflicting advice, that service represents a swathe of nurses who could be repurchased to far better effect.

I support the nurses 100%, and thank them for taking such a principled and expensive stand for all our sakes. I'll donate to their hardship fund if it goes on awhile.

@RosesAndHellebores

Standardised healthcare uniforms is happening, though no date yet as to when it will be fully implemented.

www.nursingtimes.net/news/workforce/work-starts-on-national-nhs-uniform-for-england-after-nurses-back-plans-23-09-2021/