Do you agree with the nurses strike?

[borderterrierr]

Guardian reporting that the rcn strike has resulted in a yes vote and we'll be striking before Christmas.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/05/nurses-across-uk-vote-to-strike-in-first-ever-national-action?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

Patient's emergency care will be protected but it's a strike vote

Yes 💯

And hope we will have similar support if we strike (teacher)

But without better pay there will be more loss of staff, leading to further shortages and even lower morale and more pressure on those that are left. You said it yourself better pay and conditions, the two things go hand in hand.

There are tens of thousands of unfilled vacancies. It will get much worse as a large proportion of the workforce retire over the next decade. People starting are not staying, as the conditions are so awful. It’s a profession requiring high level training and ongoing training requirements. In any other sector the pay would rise to match demand. People will work all sorts of horrible jobs for the right pay. You can be a supervisor at Aldi for the same pay as a qualified nurse so why would you expect someone to choose nursing?

A band five clears just shy of £2k pcm without overtime. If the basic hours are 36 what does a nurse clear with an additional 12 hour shift?

Most professionals work more than their standard hours but do not get overtime. Teachers for example.

Yes. 100%

Yes, 100%. As an ex-nurse, who quit due to poor pay and working conditions, something needs to be done to retain those still there. Nursing is a shitty career in a lot of ways, and expectations on them are so high, and there needs to be recompense for that.

I don’t think nurses should strike at all because it hurts and risks the lives of current patients who are innocent in all this. Its all well and good for those of us not currently receiving nursing care- as in not in hospital or hospice at this moment. But there are seriously ill and injured patients that rely on nurses.

I was a bit conflicted because I knew staffing was short, but after reading about how short it is, I don’t think that’s enough of a reason to risk patient lives. I know short staffing, having lived through extremely challenging years of short staffing in the military where lives also depended on our work. We didn’t throw the towel in.

It’s also a bit of an oxymoron to refuse to work to “stand up for patient care” when by doing so you’re taking patient care down to zero and risking their innocent lives. There has to be another way. All the management has to do is sit and wait until enough people die and public opinion turns against the nurses strike.

Im not sure if the BBC is accurate in their report but if it is, this are two more reasons why I don’t support the strike. It said an entry level nurse earns £27k/Yr which is quite good for a degreed graduate in any profession starting out. An established nurse, earns £32k and pay is around £55k for the most experienced nurses. This isn’t abysmal pay. This is decent pay imho. No one is going to work in Tesco or Aldi to “make more”. No is going to make more as a self-employed cleaner- not for the same hours.

The BBC also reported that the nurses are demanding a pay raise of inflation + 5%, which based on inflation % as of this month is a pay raise of 17%. They had a 3% raise last year.

Frankly, the demand for a 17% pay raise, and future inflation + 5% pay raises is a ridiculous demand.

If the real reason were understaffing, then sure a petition to Parliament? Or a call for a public inquiry into excess patients deaths due to understaffing? There have to be other things you can do instead of using patients as hostages and sacrificial lambs for a 17% pay raise demand!

These are the stats quoted by the article PP mentioned, and I linked previously.

those pays only change with ne roles and further study of Masters levels. And experienced nurse does not automatically get that pay. You can work your whole career as a band 5 nurse where the maximum pay is £32k. Promotions depend on job availability. You average ward will have 15 band 5s, 4 or so band 6s, and a band 7 - band 6+7 taking on more management less patient caring roles in a lot of cases. Not all the band 5 can get promoted to 6+ it just doesn't happen that way, so stay band 5 for their career and hit max pay at 4 years, and wards need the band 5 to function, which is what we are missing. Its the low grade, but front line working 12 hour shifts caring for 12 patients literally saving lives daily nurses that we need. Not the band 7's on £55k, we have those roles filled. We need to promote the band 5, retain good staff, and encourage new ones. We don't do that by capping their pay after 4 years of working unless they more onto to a new roles.

They already do significant overtime with no pay, or time in lieu, it is actually expected now because it is so ingrained.

Agree with the strike and while anyone who dies as a consequence is unfortunate, sometimes sacrifices have to be made for the greater good (see climate protesters as well). This will affect emergency care btw because emergency care is already being affected by general shortages in other parts of the NHS so it can’t escape the knock on effects.

That’s the same for most degreed professions though. You need a masters to be promoted beyond a certain level. You can’t expect to climb to the top of any professional career ladder on just the strength of a bachelors degree you received at age 21. Most professions you need a doctorate to get to the top, at least in nursing, it’s only a masters.

And promotions only depending upon job availability is not a negative, as for most professions they also depend on being the best performer out of a pool of competitors. It’s actually a silver lining of being short-staffed in that staff will be promoted faster than usual, and in some cases faster than they should be.

And their pay isn’t technically “capped” because there is the NHS annual pay raise for everyone, which last year was 3%. I know annual pay raises were frozen, set at zero for several years by the government but that’s not the same as a cap on pay.

I think a full ride bursary through University coving tuition and accommodation/board would get more nurses into the profession and alleviate the staffing shortages. As well as setting up a commission to look at passporting foreign qualifications as equivalent so nursing staff could immigrate and take up nursing jobs with only a two week induction into specifics of the NHS.

People are dying unnecessarily because of the state of the NHS. If this strike improves the situation, then it will save lives in the long run.

Any deaths caused will be the fault of the government for deliberately running the system into the ground, not of those trying to save it.

I think some posters are misunderstanding the idea of "starting salary", "experienced salary" etc. in nursing. You don't just automatically move up the bands - you go up within your band and stop at the top, even if you're very experienced. You have to apply for band 6 and higher roles competitively, and these tend to be clinical management and/or specialist advanced nursing roles, and they involve a massive increase in responsibility. There are also far, far fewer band 6 and 7s needed than band 5s. Don't look at band 5 as a starting salary that all nurses inevitably move up from.

The problem is not enough people are choosing to be a nurse, and those that did are now choosing to go and do something else. Generally because of the pay and conditions. So it doesnt matter if you think 27k is enough for something you wouldnt do anyway, because the people who would do it have started not to.

@DonnaBanana
Agree with the strike and while anyone who dies as a consequence is unfortunate, sometimes sacrifices have to be made for the greater good

See, I can’t agree with this. The Hippocratic Oath says “first do no harm” no one who is willing to deliberately let several innocent humans die for a 17% pay raise (oh and better staffing levels) should be in a nursing profession. Some of these patients are children btw. Would you be happy for your DC’s life to be a sacrifice for this greater good?

The 3% that didnt actually result in a payrise because they upp'd pesion % contributions at the same time? Nurses haven't seen a real pay rise in many many years.

Short staffed does not = faster promotions, it equals burn out and people quitting because they just can't cope. Being pressured in nursing doesn't just effect you, it effects the patients, who in turn get angry, and often abusive, as people in pain at their most vulnerable are not rationale. Nurses are the ones being abused when they literally cant do more than they are doing.

Im in £75k worth of debt for my degree. I love my job, I was one of the lucky ones who had worked within the hosp as a HCA for many years before I started my degree and knew exactly what I was letting myself in for. Many don't, they don't realise what nursing actually is these days, and many many leave. I think it was around 1/3 of my cohort didn't graduate.

I don't think the starting wage is awful, I agree, although I was somewhat pissed off my band 2 role brought home more than my band 5 role after 3 years of studying, but now I'm not in preceptorship its better. But something does have to change, we need to keep more band 5s, we need more staff on the floor, good experienced knowledgeable caring nurses. As a student every nurse would say "I wouldn't do my training again given the choice, you're crazy for doing it, should have stayed band 2" but I want to progress and further my skills. These are the staff we need to keep.

We also do have programmes recruiting people from abroad, lots of young indian nurses, who come promised these amazing jobs, then they see the reality and don't last very long.

This reminds me off the adverts for teaching a few years back on the telly saying ‘great’ teachers earn £65k. The advert got tonnes of complaints-I think this was listed as the salary scale of a lead practitioner teacher in central London-I’m not sure anyone was actually employed as one!

Nurses aren't allowed to strike about the state of the NHS and the numbers of deaths that is being caused by underfunding. If they were allowed to strike about that, I'm sure they would.

A strike will leave staffing at christmas day levels, Where people who require care will still get exactly the same as any other non striking day.

As a teacher also preparing to strike i support all industrial across my comrades are preparing to take!

I feel sorry for my friend who is a nurse, who doesn't want to have to strike - she loves her job and her patients, she's pretty much happy (probably because she's on a higher band as a specialist nurse) - but she's now forced into striking, and that's making her feel really uncomfortable.

@lolalouisa84@lolalouisa84

I think some posters are confusing a graduate degree with a professional graduate qualification it's very different and requires different consideration.
Of the UKs registered professionals nurses are the lowest paid followed by teachers.
As for the unpaid overtime being common to all jobs, it's not the same unless you are considering that this is every single day which week in and week out amounts to around a minimum of 10 hours of unpaid labour (numerous studies back this). In a job that doesn't involve caring for others you chose to work unpaid overtime.
In a job where you can't leave the shift because no one has come to replace you or there is no one trained to give the clinical care or make the clinical decision required you are not making a choice you are bound by your professional registration and body.
The average life span of a nurse is less than the average for the population as a whole, being a nurse is also a risk factor for suicide statistically speaking.
The current average duration of service before leaving nursing is 4 years, one year longer than the training that is required to attain the professional registration and not enough time to reach the top of band 5.
The reason people are mentioning the take home pay is because we pay alot more into pensions etc than other jobs, yes you get that back when you possibly live to 70 at the way things are going but its important that the public know what they are actually paying for and that is an average for the largest majority of nursing staff of about £12 ph.
I care much more about patient care than money but I couldn't continue to work on a ward alone for the most part and be expected to fulfil my professional,legal or ethical obligations to the standard that is required. Working in the community has been much easier personally the pay drop without the antisocial pay was painful but worth it and all things considered and my role is less pressured in many ways.

My main point is really that a graduate job isn't the same as a professionally registered job at all to those who are playing comparison I would advise you look up the nursing code of conduct and see if you can apply it to some graduate marketing post or some equivalent.

The option is there to leave the union.