To think Rishi is right - the government cannot be everything to everyone?

[Cuppasoupmonster]

Don’t get me wrong, the Tory government hasn’t tried to be anything let alone everything.

But I think he was right when he said there’s too much reliance on the state to provide for each and every issue the public face.

We could free up a lot of funds by taxing big corporations properly, cracking down on non doms etc. But even then, I’m not convinced the socialist utopia of generous benefits, a five star NHS, cheap and available high quality public housing, instant mental health support etc that is often discussed on here could ever be financially viable.

AIBU?

No, there isn’t. Not enough people are net contributors to afford what everyone else seems to feel entitled to be provided by the state.

The government should be there for things like infrastructure, the police force, defence, education, and making sure every child in the country has a decent start in life. It shouldn’t be there to re-distribute wealth. Everyone needs to learn to stand on their own two feet and provide for themselves.

The government should be a lot more to a lot more people and a lot less to their friends.

"The government should be there for things like infrastructure, the police force, defence, education, and making sure every child in the country has a decent start in life. "

And yet...

"And @TheIFS projects spending per pupil in 2024 will be the same level as in 2010. By the next election, we will have had 15 years with no overall growth in spending on our state schools. That’s a squeeze that IFS says is “effectively without precedent in post-war UK history”.

twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1585173776291201024?s=46&t=ZLpGgKEYmDOxbjSVp3zXVg

Too much of what we pay in tax in the UK is pocketed by those working in the public sector in the form of salaries and pensions and hardly any of the money goes to deserving people. It'd be far more efficient for high rate tax payers to go round deprived areas and put a few hundred quid into every letterbox, than to pay sky high taxes of which a small percent goes to the needy.

Which means per-pupil fundind has fallen 30-35%.

Disgusting, while we are all being taxed more.

People should ask themselves what Government priorities are if they are not investing in education. It's a no-brainer considering our productivity crisis.

So why is that, do you think?

Where is the highest tax burden ever outside war times being spent? And do you genuinely believe in that context that taxing more would be spent on better services?

If so, heads need examining.

"Infact there are many many people in the UK who are negative contributors to tax as they pay little tax and when you consider the resources used eg NHS, schools etc they are actually getting more than they pay in."

Yes! - that is the whole point of a socialised system. Everyone benefits - as individuals and society as a whole - and there is a safety net to catch those who for whatever reason cannot provide sufficiently for themselves. The cost is borne by those with the broader shoulders, or who have had the good fortune to prosper.

How does society benefit from supporting those who are "getting more than they pay in"? Quite apart from the moral issue (there still seem to be people who are quite happy that the 6th wealthiest country on the planet has millions of people struggling to pay for heating, food and adequate housing and who are waiting months for hospital treatment) there is a longer-term benefit to improving the lot of everyone.

Better education, healthcare, housing and infrastructure results in a healthier population and a healthier economy. If the children of those who are struggling today are not supported and given better opportunities, then they become the people who need even more support in the future when they become adults. Look at this at community level too - the destruction of the old industries has left entire communities with little or no employment, no internal investment and no prospects. The young have moved away - and in turn they put more pressure on the housing markets in the cities that they have moved to. There is a reason why a terraced house in the north of England can be bought for peanuts while a similar house in North London costs hundreds of thousands.

yes and no, not without unintended consequences. The fiat system means we can operate with a deficit but we couldn’t spend endlessly.

IMO we should return to the gold standard.

You mean people working in the public sector as nurses, doctors, teachers, police officers, even bin men - those people? How is their work not benefiting everyone in society and not just the better off? This place is bonkers sometimes.

@Skidaramink there is enough, it's not distributed in a way that benefits all. Some people in society can't stand on their own two feet. I don't want to live in a world where the disabled and vulnerable are discarded.

"Especially when you add in our much higher than average rate of VAT."

UK VAT is 20%. The only countries in Europe with a lower rate are Germany (19%) Cyprus (19%) Malta (18%) Romania (19%) and Luxembourg (17%). All of the other European countries have rates of 20% or higher - in Sweden, Denmark and Croatia VAT is 25%, in Hungary it is 27%.

The UK VAT rate is lower than that of 17 of the EU member states and the EU’s average standard VAT rate of 21%

Maybe the statistics will help.

on Debt UK government debt is £2.5t. The ‘black hole’ that govt is trying to cover by taxing you all more and cutting more is £60b. The government borrowed £500b to pay for Covid. That’s right 20% of total debt happened in the last two years because the govt chose to lock healthy people at home and throw money around like confetti. And to cover for £60b, they are now telling you that you have to pay more. The rest hasn’t even started to be paid yet.

On inflation, the UK government has printed £1t. Thats £1,000,000,000,000. Half of that was printed in to in the last two years, again to lock up healthy people at home, while the economy was being destroyed right in front of your eyes. This has then led to the double digit inflation we have now.

And the gems just keep coming. Increase in corporation tax at a time when the private sector investment is already faltering. Higher taxes when the economy is going into recession. Cancellation of power plants as we struggle with supplies.

Rishi Sunak is directly responsible for a lot of this. And now he gas lights people into thinking that it happened by accident. Folks, you’ve had all the freebies you were going to get during Covid. Now it’s time to pay.

We keep hearing this, if governments can print any money they want then why do all country's have excellent services and military?

What does printing loads of money do to your currency when needing to import stuff?

Unfortunately Brown sold our gold.

We need to invest in dc & ensure the upcoming generations are highly skilled. That's the best path for a prosperous future. Of course there isn't enough dc as people can't afford them.

People should have to pay a land value tax which contributes to bullring more homes. If they don't like, they downsize. If they can't afford it a charge can go on the home. Most of the countries money is locked up in housing which has fucked everything up.

"Unfortunately Brown sold our gold."

At the time this seemed like a crazy idea and Brown was roundly criticised, but the money was invested in a sovereign wealth fund that has performed better than gold, so his actions actually improved the UK's economic situation.

Of course, like all investment performance, this might be more down to luck than judgement and is not really a way to run the finances of a country any more than betting a million on the 3.15 horse race at Sandown is.

Agree with this

"According to this report by HMRC the top 1% of earners contribute about 30% of tax received by the government and I can assure they use less government resources as they are more likely to send their kids to private school, use private medical etc."

Who pays for the training of the teachers at these private schools, or for the medical staff in the private hospitals? Do these taxpayers also use the same roads and railways as everyone else or is there a separate infrastructure that they use? What about the police, armed forces, Border Force? Do they have private binmen, separate dumps and recycling units, and a separate supply of water, gas and electricity?

The argument usually states that "people don't want to pay more tax" - and yet there is a whole segment of the population that is happy to pay more for private healthcare and private education - not for the benefit of the population at large, but so that they can buy what they perceive to be an advantage over everyone else.

Income tax accounts for less than a third of government revenue. The less wealthy pay proportionally much more of their incomes in indirect taxes. The income tax argument is a red herring.

This guy made sense -he should run for parliament!

www.tiktok.com/@lbc/video/7132825652876741893?_t=8X7odRGBp93&_r=1

Honestly it means he is going to tax you more to deal with his Government screw ups and you will get less. But his sponsors get more.

Conservatives telling you to take responsibility in these circumstances is an utter pee take.

Still there will be enough well upholstered middle class fools who will like the Victorian morality of it - truthfully it's called "you are going to be poorer, accept it".

You do understand that the work we do in the public sector does deliver public services that people want, need and rely on?!

I can certainly speak for London when I say that right to buy created deep seated social divisions which have now become entrenched. You had people buying £3m houses next door to a RTB who paid £30,000 and openly berating them for being "mugs" and "posh idiots". It never had an aspirational effect on either side. It just fueled suspicion and resentment and encouraged vanishing prejudices to rise to the surface again.

Hawkins00
As the banks use a fiat currency system, they can pretty much print what is needed.

Every heard of the balance of payments deficit?

It has increased from 2% to 8% GDP post-Brexit. Who do you think funds that? The UK is reliant on foreign investment to stay afloat now. Foreign investors won't continue to do that if you just print money, as KameKwazi discovered. You need a viable economy with decent productivity.

The fat and slack in the public sector is a genuine problem. The civil service is like a giant hunk of fatty meat with a higher proportion of fat than meat. It is counterproductive to honest, hard work. One person makes unreasonable demands, if they are bossy enough they are heard. The bar is then permanently lowered for all of the others in the name of equality. I have heard about it too many times.