To think that women without children should be able to take time off work too?

[Playfair]

Firstly I will say that I am 100% supportive of good maternity leave (and paternity / shared), and understand the importance of supporting women to maintain a career, care for children or whatever else they wish.

I also acknowledge that maintaining birth rates is critical for society. And that maternity leave is spent doing work in raising a child.

Reflecting on my company's good maternity policy (about 6 months paid) and also some other institutions that have announced paid time off for those undergoing fertility treatment, it leaves me wondering about those of us without children (by choice or otherwise).

I'm in my thirties and will never have children. I'd love to have a small amount of paid time off (in addition to usual annual leave) to do some lengthy travel for example. I can't see why we can't have access to something similar if you haven't used any maternity benefit by a certain point.

There would obviously be benefits for society & business from developing new skills, morale etc. As well as women in work contributing to economy and through taxation.

So,

YABU - Women who choose not to have children shouldn't be entitled to anything else

YANBU - Women should be able to claim a small amount of extra paid time off if they stay in a career and contribute to business and societies success

Long service leave is usually 13 weeks after 10 years, not 6 months (where I am anyway). I cashed a fair whack of mine out to help pay for a big holiday.

@AMorningstar @keeprunningupthathill I mean, obviously it’s my employer’s fault. I’m not disputing that. I even said that I don’t want anyone’s maternity leave to be removed.

I raised it because I thought the disparity emphasised why I find it so saddening to see a group of women laughing at the idea of a childless worker getting any time off in their own right. It’s pretty obvious that anyone who isn’t wholly against the OP is going to get shouted down, though, so fair enough.

Women without children are already living the dream.
You having no fkg idea.

oh my god yes. It’s so true. They will actively twist comments and sentences to make them into something they weren’t and then act as if they were personally attacked and completely derail entire threads because of it. It’s really difficult to feel empathy when they do things like that.

And then everyone on parenting threads feels like they have to constantly apologize for being fertile.

They also seem to believe they are the only ones who have lost kids especially since I have one of my own. I have lost my daughters twin brother and had another miscarriage after that. But I don’t go around hounding women about it. It’s very frustrating.

It’s like if a legless man went to a race and then shamed all the runners for “bragging” about their abilities to walk or shaming people for going up steps and making them feel bad for not having legs. It’s really silliness.

Because maternity leave is not ‘time off’!

But.. if you are ill through stress then take time off. You are entitled to it. I have had time off due to stress. It's absolutely nothing to do with having time off to have a baby.

🙄

maternity leave is not a holiday. You can only really understand that once you are going through that. Feels more like a disability (not intended to hurt anyone), just the feeling of your body being not being your own and still healing, there is a small human needs your attention 24/7 and you cant even sleep, shower etc. Seriously women do need this time after having a baby and it is not the same as wanting to take time for yourself.

Sorry for your losses. I had several miscarriages and horrific pregnancies personally, yet I never insulted or tried to make other people feel bad before I had my kids. I understand and empathise with them but it's just not the way to deal with feeling that way

Time away from the workplace to pursue something that you’ve chosen to do, then. Jesus Christ.

Honestly this is where discrimination comes from there is no comparison maternity leave is not a holiday, its so a mother can recover from birth and a baby has there parent there for the first few months which are critical. Not to mention risk of post natal depression, like someone mentioned think of it like sick leave.

Yes companies may offer different benefits in terms of pay for this but bottom line the time off aspect is legal.
It is moral and wise to ensure that there is good payment, for a number of reasons, retention, gender equality, as most families now rely of two incomes.

I however do not think you are being unreasonable in more balance in the workplace in terms of leave for other reason especially other caring responsibilities than children. But for extended holidays that's what sabbaticals are for.

I guess I'm coming at it from a different angle from the original post (sorry op!). My point isn't about making it 'fair' for women who don't have children, but about the idea that everyone has the opportunity to thrive and achieve ambitions outside of a career.

It's interesting to me that parenthood is seen as the ultimate goal that should be encouraged above all others, but that's not necessarily the case. Who knows what would happen if people could be supported to further themselves in any way they desired?

I know this isn't something that is actually going to happen in today's society btw!

Being childless myself, I've often wondered the same thing. Smokers sneak away for breaks the rest of us don't, parents take time the rest of us aren't entitled to. It isn't fair, but what in life is?

If women without children can take time off like this then women with children should have an equal right to time off. Otherwise you are discriminating against a woman for reproducing.

I love this. I always wanted to be a smoker to get the breaks but never could force myself to like them 😅

It gets really complicated too when you look at mums of multiple children. So if a colleague got three rounds of maternity leave and say I only had one, would I then be entitled to two 6 month periods of leave to go travelling?

I do think more workplaces should offer sabbaticals, if the employer can afford to do so (possibly easier said than done in the current economic climate). But I also think that to offer those sabbaticals only to individuals who have not taken maternity or even shared parental leave would be (a) direct discrimination because of pregnancy or maternity and (b) indirect sex discrimination (because women are more likely to take extended maternity/parental leave). Pregnancy and maternity leave are protected by law for very good reasons alluded to in the OP. Excluding women who have taken maternity leave from this type of benefit would add yet a further disadvantage to those mothers already experience in the workplace.

I am all for protection of other carers and indeed there is already some limited statutory protection for employees with caring responsibilities. I think there should be more. But that is a different issue.

I'm not saying some mothers don't enjoy maternity leave - I enjoyed some of my second one (the first, not so much). But it exists for a myriad of societal reasons, most of which do not apply to the OP's suggestion.

If you’re offended by this post you need help

What a ridiculous thing to say! I am also offended by this post, and it smacks of the kind of comments I hear constantly in my workplace about women going on mat leave 'taking time off' or 'having a holiday'. Really appalling.

@HerMajestysRoyalCoven oh I was sympathetic until I saw the latest post. The point is..only women can have children. If women were penalised in the workplace for choosing to have children then we'd be going back to the fifties where men had the big jobs and the women stayed at home. Maternity pay is just giving women a level playing for field to men. I don't understand why other women don't support this.

Because you are.

But for some women it is having time off

not everyone sits at home sleep deprived and in pain.

not everyone even sits at home with a baby on mat leave either

My childless sister in law has this argument. It actually pisses me off. Cracked nipples and sleep deprivation is not a holiday.

@KimberleyClark and @Cozyqueen you both sound very bitter towards mothers, maybe aim your energy into something more constructive than putting other women down for having something you don't?

What happened to women supporting women and sisterhood!

@Playfair Whilst I can appreciate your sentiment I think you are looking at it from the wrong angle. Think about it more as a claim in court for damages situation, whether that might be for unfair dismissal or being in an accident, etc. The extent of the claim awarded is to cover you for the inconvenience you suffered, in general it will look at loss of earnings or compensation for long term effects of an injury, etc. You can’t claim unless you suffered that injury or dismal. You can’t say just because I was lucky and didn’t end up in any of those situation I shouldn’t be penalised by not receiving compensation.

Whilst having children is a choice, the point is if someone does have a child it requires 24/7 care. Hence one is entitled to that leave where the employer has to keep the job for you. Yes, some employers provide enhanced pay but even then only if you qualify for maternity pay and very often to get the enhanced pay you need to have been with your employer for a period of time that is longer than the government qualifying period.

So really you need to look at it as why is there even an entitlement for the leave (regardless of pay - as, as said the pay can vary). It is there for the specific reason that a baby needs 24/7 care to survive. Yes, that means in general the mother (but sometimes also the father) get’s time off (very often only receiving the government minimum pay) which you don’t get if you don’t have a child. But the leave is there essentially to care for the baby as a baby can’t care for itself. It is a very specific thing.

Therefore, also, even though having children is a choice, one can argue you shouldn’t be penalised for that choice. If additional paid leave is provided to people who choose not to have children and people who choose to have children don’t get the same entitlement they are effectively being penalised for the choice to have children.

If companies decide we want to give our employees paid time off all employees should have the same entitlement. And then there are these other entitlements which one can only claim in specific circumstances, such as paid sick leave, compassionate leave, maternity leave, etc….