People are fine with being disrespectful to Christians

[Flymetothezoom]

At a church playgroup. The people who run it are very devout Christians. I am taken aback, by the number of parents, who thought it was appropriate to bring their kids to the church dressed for Halloween. Kids are dressed as witches, goblins, skeletons, creepy pumpkins etc..
The church holds a light party every year on Halloween and is very clear that they do not endorse Halloween.

Who are all these catholic women rolling their eyes? Just because you are? Or are you just assuming they all think the same?

The actual Catholic women who are actually posting on this thread.

Actually in a recent survey of Irish dioceses 96% of catholics were in favour women being ordained.

…so?

Let's face it, homosexuals are probably a lot more persecuted than Christians - and a lot of the time, it's Christians, Muslims and other faiths doing the persecuting.

I would agree with this.

@Powderandpaint

it begs the question "Are they scared of Christianity"?

I don’t think it begs that question at all.

I think that they’re angry with it - in the same way that, say, many women are angry with patriarchical society - and for quite similar reasons. We all tend to rail against those institutions that we feel have mistreated us or are misrepresenting us or are just taking us for a ride.

You’d feel much the same way if British Gas of John Lewis ripped you off, however much your peers told you that they were a lovely company with your best interests at heart.

So no one is allowed to say anything critical, particularly in relation to access to all formal roles in the church, as it ‘helps no one’ because a minority of catholics on this thread disagree? Even though there are many things pointing to the fact that the views of some catholics on this thread are not the views of all catholics, and indeed very possibly not even most.

And yet the Catholic Church in Ireland are still doing their utmost to restrict access to abortion through their hold on healthcare. Men making all the decisions on women’s rights.

@GoldenOmber - for the last time, disagreeing with you does not make me rude and sneery.

Despite what you might think I am fully supportive and welcoming of people having a faith and a place to worship. I am just of the opinion that faith should be a completely private issue. I don’t mean hide it, but I mean it should have no place in the public services of the UK, be it schools, trading hours, doctors getting to deny women abortions or contraception. I don’t think religion has any place in the government deciding policy. I don’t give a crap that Jane thinks life begins and conception.

If churches want to keep a charitable status then fine, but they need to do work to benefit wider society which doesn’t involve trying to recruit more members or pushing their views on others. I also strongly disagree with any government funding for churches or religious schools. Happy for them to exist but their religious members need to fund it. If churches are historically important buildings then happy to fund them but not only for the benefit of that religion. They should be open to hire for things like yoga and Halloween parties!

What are you talking about? Did you quote the wrong post?

CapMarvel

”Halloween as a festival dates back to the ancient celts. If your uptight church doesn't like it maybe stop trying to appropriate it into something else and just ignore it?”

exactly.

I mean considering the fact that you have been quoting me for multiple posts clearly not.

You are the one suggesting people are ‘missing something’ when they speak about women not being ordained in the church because apparently that’s what catholics want, backed up by a very small number of posters on this thread.

I’m pointing out to you that based on recent large studies and other referenda that isn’t the case and actually raising criticism is perfectly valid particularly when many many people within the church agree about reform.

@DameHelena I just don't understand why women having that ability means that they cannot also take up certain offices.

I'm afraid I can't help you understand. As I said, I have given you the position of the Catholic Church. That's it.

As I am not a Hindu I am not sure that the God Ganesh helps to remove obstacles or even that he exists at all.
However, if Hindus believe in him and find him helpful I am happy to accept that.

I'm not going to go on a forum and demand that they make me understand their religion and prove his existence.

Given the dwindling popularity of Christianity and the lack of belief in a deity (driven of course by education and scientific understanding of things previously considered 'miraculous' as well as a rise in critical thinking), I would have thought your church would be delighted to have people show up in whatever outfits they deem fit.

Bums on seats and all that...

That's very disingenuous. Your post on the matter exhorts us to 'realize that God has given women other gifts that he has not given to men.' And you say later 'I gave my opinion and the Catholic stance'. Both of which imply that you aren't simply giving 'the position of the Catholic Church.'
Talk of Ganesh and proving other deities' existence has nothing to do with the question I asked. Again, talking around the issue rather than engaging with it.

Oh well.

I spent a lot of time searching for references to priests in the New Testament when the CofE was debating whether women could be priests. I found there two references. The priesthood of all believers, or the HIgh Priesthood of Christ. And nothing about the distinction between men and women. Nothing about Mass, either.
A distinction based on the wonderful privilege of having babies - not mentioned. And where does that leave those of us who for various reasons don't get to do that? All those unfortunate female victims of WWI, widows and single, not fully part of the church, were they?
And priests get to represent Christ? Really? What chutzpah!
There's a lot of heavy lifting done by the pseudepigraphia - claimed to have been written by Paul, but not by him, and it is in those bits that the women are different and have different rules. Paul himself said that in Christ there are no male or female, which echoes Genesis 1, in which God says "Let us make man in our own image" followed by "male and female created he them".
One can play picky picky with the Bible to prove a lot of things, but the only things you can claim to have been sourced from God are what Jesus is supposed to have said. Everything else has passed through a number of male minds on the way to parchment, vellum and paper. And they ddn't actually say anything about who was allowed to give homilies, offer the Eucharist, say blessings, or what actual sacraments were. For that you need tradition, and guess whose minds that was transmitted by.
Which brings me back to a shtetl and the Seder. I came across the idea of Christians doing this in a book by MIchelle Guiness, Jewish, married a vicar. She was, I think, trying to bring back the followers of Jesus to their source. The Eucharist is derived frm the Seder. It was intended to be respectful.
I was supposed to be teaching about Judaism, and did a respectful version of the Seder with children. Afterwards I was met by one of the class with her mother and her grandmother. They were, it transpired, Jewish, and were tremendously grateful that the daughter had had that experience. (There was obviously stuff there I wasn't told, but I was glad I had done it.)
May your gods bless you all. Even if you don't believe I should say that. My God doesn't agree with you.

You are the one suggesting people are ‘missing something’ when they speak about women not being ordained in the church because apparently that’s what catholics want, backed up by a very small number of posters on this thread.

Except I didn’t actually say that.

I am happy to discuss with you the things I actually did say, and the positions I do hold, but I don’t see how I can have a conversation with you about it id you’re going to make up views I don’t hold and then demand I defend them.

I love the irony in Christians always getting defensive when asked the WHY of belief... i studied Philosophy at A Level, the whole 'problem of belief' thing with God cannot be All loving, knowing, and powerful at the same time....etc
It was a huge reason behind my conversion to paganism.

As a Pagan, its often one of the first questions people ask "Why are you pagan?" and most of us have fairly reasoned responses as we've come to those beliefs after years of research and soul searching to find what 'fits' us best.

Most Christians i've had that conversation (coming from a point of being christian originally) don't have an answer, they're very 'just because' and the just because, like me, is that its how they were raised, and they accepted what they were taught as just the way it is... very few have done the learning, the bible reading, the research into their faith,.. and that critical thinking about your faith/beliefs ought to be essential.

Blind Faith in a religion you've been indoctrinated into by your parents/society is dangerous.

@WalkingOnTheCracks I think that they’re angry with it - in the same way that, say, many women are angry with patriarchical society - and for quite similar reasons. We all tend to rail against those institutions that we feel have mistreated us or are misrepresenting us or are just taking us for a ride.

That's interesting.
Despite what you say there isn't a big movement against pornography which is the most patriarchal and misogynistic industry on the planet.
Maybe religion is a 'softer' target.

Which bit did you not say?

If the Catholic women you’re purporting to liberate are just rolling their eyes at you rather than talking to you about e.g. laity having more power after Vatican II or the slow progress of the study commission on ordaining women to the permanent diaconate, then this may indicate that you’re missing something.

Who are all these catholic women rolling their eyes? Just because you are? Or are you just assuming they all think the same?

The actual Catholic women who are actually posting on this thread.

And yet when provided a pretty strong level of evidence that actually most catholics are not rolling their eyes at the view of equality for women with in the church you play dumb and deny your own posts.

Im Equmenical but I personally attend a CofE flock although regularly in the Catholic church and Methodist church too as family members are a mix of Catholic and Methodist and I have friends from many denomonations including mormon and ex-Jehovah.

You dont have to believe the bible to be Christian, Faith is not just blindly following what people/old books say that would be a cult.

I believe a man called Jesus existed, theres no reason to think he didnt hes documented enough to hold weight and I think he was a Saint with a good message to spread but I dont believe he was the son of 'god' (anymore than the rest of us are the results of the creation of life) or magic. Just a mortal man like the rest of us who gave his life to preach tolerance and love (oddly in opposition of basically everything in the 'god fearing' old testiment).

As for the old testiment its all just interesting bedtime stories, non of it really stands up to any logical thought but that doesnt mean you cant believe theres thing we dont yet understand thats bigger than us just because we know 2000+ year old fables arent factual.

People like to embellish stories and always have, awareness of mans mortallity and flaws does not then exclude you from partaking in a group of belief of other parts of the religeon.

@DameHelena Your post on the matter exhorts us to 'realize that God has given women other gifts that he has not given to men.' And you say later 'I gave my opinion and the Catholic stance'. Both of which imply that you aren't simply giving 'the position of the Catholic Church.'

I really don't understand your argument.

I would respectfully suggest that if you don't like my answers then maybe speak to your local Parish Priest who I am sure will be happy to answer your questions.

Thank you for this. It's excellent, fascinating info.

This thread has moved a long way from a few mums unintentionally causing someone offence by dressing their children in Halloween costumes. What it illustrates to me is how far various churches have moved from the spirit of Christ’s message. I think Christians would be more respected if they lived out Christ’s teaching. It’s a shame that some people have thrown out the whole concept of Christian spirituality and God because of the way Christianity has been distorted. Not all Christians read scripture without putting it in its historical context, they take the spirit behind the teaching and focus on prayer and meditation.

And yet when provided a pretty strong level of evidence that actually most catholics are not rolling their eyes at the view of equality for women with in the church you play dumb and deny your own posts.

I see we’ll have to take this step by step.

Step 1: Can you point me to the place where I said that I don’t think women should be ordained?

@mam0918 Im Equmenical

Sorry I don't know what that is, it's a denomination I haven't heard of so can you elucidate.?

It's just the one question really: given in my earlier post, but here it is again: I just don't understand why women having that ability means that they cannot also take up certain offices.

I wonder what you think of Treaclemine's post on the subject beginning 'I spent a lot of time searching for references to priests in the New Testament when the CofE was debating whether women could be priests.'

Really?

@DameHelena
You have accused me of being 'disingenious', 'talking around the issue and not engaging with it', suggested I misrepresented the Position of the Catholic church .and now you want me to give an opinion on another topic?

That isn't going to happen.