People are fine with being disrespectful to Christians

[Flymetothezoom]

At a church playgroup. The people who run it are very devout Christians. I am taken aback, by the number of parents, who thought it was appropriate to bring their kids to the church dressed for Halloween. Kids are dressed as witches, goblins, skeletons, creepy pumpkins etc..
The church holds a light party every year on Halloween and is very clear that they do not endorse Halloween.

@WalkingOnTheCracks But I think that the word ‘atheists’ in that sentence could be replaced with practically any plural noun pertaining to people, and could then be posted on any thread at all.

I'm sure it could. But whenever these type of threads appear a bunch of militant atheists seem to come out of the woodwork demanding that Christians prove their religion is 'right'.
As their fervour and tenacity seems only matched by that of the Westboro Baptist Church it begs the question "Are they scared of Christianity"? 🤔

Being as Christianity has appropriated quite a few holidays and made them their own I'm not entire sure that Christians should be complaining about this.

So you compare atheists, to one of the most vile and hostile Christian off shots/denominations that currently exist because they ask you to elaborate, prove your point but all you can respond with is “straw man” to any legitimate question? Why such an awful such comparison. The burden of proof of god is on you , not on the atheists, because you are making the claims of gods existence. And continuously regurgitating the bible “as proof” is not really proof of anything. And so you compare atheists to Westboro Baptist church. So you can’t respond properly to valid questions so you resort to the equivalent of vile name calling. Nice.

@SnoozyLucy7 So you can’t respond properly to valid questions so you resort to the equivalent of vile name calling. Nice.

Oh dear. Someone is getting upset about the 'pots & kettles' it seems.

Now the boot is on the other foot, the 'skyfairy' brigade are getting all hot and bothered.
They don't like being called out on their 'strawman arguments' either. Shame.😏

I dunno, ‘respect has to be earned’ sounds fine, but what it typically means on threads like this is ‘I wish to be a rude sneery arse to people on the internet and pretend my philosophical views on the problem of evil justify this.’

I have some fairly major disagreements with eg humanism and humanist organisations, but I don’t go hounding people on Mumsnet going “urgh you’re all power-hungry bigots, I am so intellectually superior, humanist wedding ceremonies are vapid and cringey, WHAT I am not being RUDE I am merely saying that you need to earn my respect before I’ll be polite.”

@GoldenOmber I dunno, ‘respect has to be earned’ sounds fine, but what it typically means on threads like this is ‘I wish to be a rude sneery arse to people on the internet and pretend my philosophical views on the problem of evil justify this.’
I have some fairly major disagreements with eg humanism and humanist organisations, but I don’t go hounding people on Mumsnet going “urgh you’re all power-hungry bigots, I am so intellectually superior, humanist wedding ceremonies are vapid and cringey, WHAT I am not being RUDE I am merely saying that you need to earn my respect before I’ll be polite.”

^^This nails it.

I’m afraid that’s not a fair comparison. Christianity has a disproportionate amount of power in the UK compared to the beliefs of the population. 38% of the population was Christian in the last study. Yet our shops only open for a few hours on a Sunday, bishops sit in the House of Lords and I do not have a non religious school for about 5 miles. The CofE also owns a ridiculous amount of land and real estate left over from days gone by.

We are also left with many of the traditional Christian views on women and LGBT people ingrained in our society. Even some on this thread re women! Christianity has an unjustified privileged position in our society, the 62% of people who do not share that view have a right to be angry about that.

I am not an atheist. You won’t win any extra points for being so condescending. However, I can’t see how anyone could engage with you in any serious debate or discourse, in any sincere way, as you are so patronising.

If your faith is so strong you should be able to withstand any scrutiny and criticism. And absolutely everything should be open to scrutiny, especially religion, given the massive claims it makes. And again, stop with the straw man argument! It’s so repetitive and doesn’t answer any questions.

@BloodAndFire - I am so glad you said this, I didn’t have the energy to bring it up last night.

There are 2.2 BILLION Christians in the world. No persecution is good, but when you look at relative percentages, Christians are very much the dominant religion and persecution is low compared to others.

Also can’t believe your comments on the “Christian” Seder! I saw a lot of anger last year at non-Jewish folk lighting menorahs as if they are a pretty candelabra etc. Just why.

“I dont ENJOY being a rude sneery arse to theists on Mumsnet, but I am FORCED to be because there are Bishops in the House of Lords” is, like I said, the kind of thing that does not ring 100% convincing.

We live in a predominantly secular society, where the majority of the population do not have any particular religious belief or practice. I’m therefore in the minority (and I don’t even get HoL bishops!) - but, as I said, if I choose to be a sneery arse to humanists, that’s nobody’s fault but mine.

@SnoozyLucy7 I can’t see how anyone could engage with you in any serious debate or discourse, in any sincere way, as you are so patronising.

Yet you have engaged with me specifically, just to tell me that?!

You put my feelings into words on that. On the one hand the evil Church wants to suppress pagan traditions. Why did Halloween traditions basically only survive in Ireland and Scotland I wonder.

On the other hand nasty atheists won't respect our newly invented Light festival. It's the Eve of All Hallows. All Saints. Maybe this particular church doesn't believe in saints , regarding them as a sort of pagan residue? Fine. Ignore the whole thing then.

Men and women's physical, biological capabilities are not interchangeable, that's true. However, as far as I know, it is physically possible for women to go through the process of becoming a bishop, priest or deacon. So there must be some other reason for them not being permitted to do so. I wonder what that could be? 🤔

Then again, I probably just 'have a wrong viewpoint', don't I, like all the other poor ignorant souls who don't get it.

@GoldenOmber - being critical of a religion is not being rude or sneery. I haven’t said anything rude, I haven’t mocked your beliefs, I have just pointed out some parts I have issues with. Your post however was rude. Perhaps consider the way you represent your religion eh.

@DameHelena I gave my opinion and the Catholic stance on this issue and also the stance of the Traditional Anglican Church (Episcopalian)

Other denominations may not agree. You don't have to agree either.

If you don't like it then don't join those churches, but don't stand on the sidelines and throw stones, as that doesn't help anyone/thing.

I agree with you @Flymetothezoom
Unfortunately it is prevalent in society, swearing is part of conversation

And I think some of posters on this friend are also being disrespectful sadly in their apparently disingenuous responses

Well, by 'stand on the sidelines and throw stones', I guess you mean 'comment on this thread', as we are all doing.

You seem to be trying to blind people with science by talking around the history and structure of Christianity. What you haven't addressed is my (and others') specific point: why does one sex (in whatever denominations) not get access to some formal offices while the other does?
And yes, I do think giving birth and creating new life is not only a privilege but a very special and unique ability, as well as obviously being something that men will never have. I just don't understand why women having that ability means that they cannot also take up certain offices.

Sorry but this is nonsense. Since when is any criticism ‘throwing stones’?
And why does not saying anything help?
I was brought up in Catholicism and I think it is absolutely fair for anyone, in or outside the church to air any views they have.
There are many things in the church that wouldn’t have come out (child abuse, giving away babies, burying babies in mass unmarked graves or hiding them in a septic tank come to mind) that never would have come out of no one was allowed to speak critically because ‘it doesn’t help anything’.

I’m afraid I’m not following what point you think I’m making, so to return to the point I actually did make:

• I don’t have any problem really with “respect has to be earned” on general principle;

• however, on threads like this, it often tends to mean “I get to indulge being rude and sneery to people who aren’t like me, while justifying it to myself by saying I just have deep philosophical disagreements with the belief system they belong to;

• there are plenty of belief systems I have deep philosophical disagreements with myself, but I don’t think that this gives me permission to be rude and sneery to random people on Mumsnet who say they subscribe to those belief systems.

lighting menorahs as if they are a pretty candelabra

The thing is, if you aren't Jewish, that is exactly what they are. And if you aren't Christian then churches are just cold drafty buildings. And so on.

I don’t mind non-Catholics having an opinion on the role of Catholic women in the Catholic Church. Say what you like? But the women this directly affects is Catholic women, and Catholic women typically have varied and complex thoughts on this that go beyond “priests are the bosses and you don’t get to be one”.

If the Catholic women you’re purporting to liberate are just rolling their eyes at you rather than talking to you about e.g. laity having more power after Vatican II or the slow progress of the study commission on ordaining women to the permanent diaconate, then this may indicate that you’re missing something.

The history of oppression of Jewish people is repugnant. And the anti semitism that continues to this day the same.

The statistics about persecution are from large worldwide surveys of religious persecution - I posted one link. Persecution levels in the countries I mentioned are at an all time high. When I talk of persecution I don't mean what some Christians believe to be persecution in this country - ie people not agreeing with you - but torture, imprisonment and death which is happening on a large scale in places like China and Nigeria. It's just a statistical thing today; me reporting what is happening now does and should never negate the atrocities against Jewish people in world war 2 and the rest of history, which is so evil.

If the menorahs were being flogged as candles you'd have a point.

This, and other, churches willingly open their doors to the public, who for the large part do not share their faith. Can't then complain they are exposed to others ideas and traditions then.

I don’t mind non-Catholics having an opinion on the role of Catholic women in the Catholic Church. Say what you like? But the women this directly affects is Catholic women, and Catholic women typically have varied and complex thoughts on this that go beyond “priests are the bosses and you don’t get to be one”.

If the Catholic women you’re purporting to liberate are just rolling their eyes at you rather than talking to you about e.g. laity having more power after Vatican II or the slow progress of the study commission on ordaining women to the permanent diaconate, then this may indicate that you’re missing something.

Who are all these catholic women rolling their eyes? Just because you are? Or are you just assuming they all think the same?

Many women (and men) consider themselves catholic but do not accept their law straight from the Vatican, nor do they look to the Vatican before they are allowed to form their own opinion.
For example Ireland is still very much a catholic county with 78% identifying as so and yet they voted overwhelmingly for same sex marriage and access to abortion.

Actually in a recent survey of Irish dioceses 96% of catholics were in favour women being ordained.
85% felt LGBT exclusion within the church was concerning.
So what am I missing?

@GoldenOmber I am (as you have probably guessed) an atheist, but I'm not one of those who sneers about sky fairies etc. I also don't have a problem with religion per se, but when people get together in groups, they do things and condone things that they wouldn't consider supporting as individuals. It's all about the corrupting nature of power.

So I respect the people I know who are religious. They are my friends - I have pretty decent taste in friends and they're all good people. I come to occasions where there is faith with an open mind. Sadly, I am often disappointed. In all but one of the church services I have attended there has been something in the sermon about how sad we should all feel for those who don't know Jesus - that doesn't show much respect for people of other faiths and none, does it? The one exception to that was last year at a vow renewal for some friends of mine in a Catholic ceremony. It was warm, it was loving, it was inclusive and it gave me renewed confidence that religion is, like all of humanity, complex and many shades of grey.

Overall I have issues with religion because most of the members of my household are gay. I don't care what your holy book says. If it says that being gay is sinful, it's a pile of shit and I will disrespect you for believing it. Let's face it, homosexuals are probably a lot more persecuted than Christians - and a lot of the time, it's Christians, Muslims and other faiths doing the persecuting.