To think that something has to be done about the immigration crisis?

[JudesBiggestFan]

But I don't know what? More than 900 people landed in Dover today, as I discovered when reading about the terrible petrol bomb attack on a detention centre. Detention centres overcrowded, more than 7 million pounds a day being spent on hotel rooms for illegal immigrants, horrendously slow processing of applications...people drowning in the channel and local people feeling angry and frustrated because of the strain on services. Not to mention the mental health toll on people living their lives in limbo! So what is the answer? Because I just don't know anymore but it feels like the system has completely broken down.

Well I was responding initially to a poster who said Albanian families were good with their elderly so could be useful in care homes. I would want to look into why and who before filling work gaps just to not do legal visa route.

But since you jumping on posts and shouting I’ll leave you to it.

It’s getting dull.

The ones most likely to be casualties of conflicts are young men aged 18 to 35.

Stop all boats and crack on with Rwanda, no more please we are fit to burst.

How will the situation in those countries ever improve if all the people who should be working and fighting to make things better flee abroad?

How would the French Revolution have done if all the impoverished young men of France had fled across the channel and claimed asylum in Britain?

@MarshaBradyo Please do. It’s tiring replying to what I thought were genuine questions with a response that explains the situation, only for you to ignore it and post the same question/sentiment again. I’m sure you’ll accuse me of being “overly confident” that when I answer a question anyone will remember it, but when someone takes the time to answer a question you’ve posed (or offers to repost relevant info that answers your question), and it gets either ignored (fair enough) or “but they’re 18-39 so…” (already explained) it does start to feel pretty rude.

Seriously just give up then. I’m sure other posters would like your expertise focussed on them.

I was responding to another poster re filling work needs. I still think visa route is a more appropriate method given the work that needs filling - care homes etc. That doesn’t mean we can’t take refugees in some cases.

Yes this makes sense to me

walkinginsunshinekat
It must also be remembered that many [BN(O) status holders from Hong Kong planning to move to the UK] are older and will need care

They won't need care yet - only 5% born in the 1950s or earlier in this initial survey;

migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-migration-intentions-of-british-national-overseas-status-holders-in-hong-kong/

@Florenz You’re right that they need people to improve the system, but it’s “survival first, revolution second”. It’s hard to change the system from the inside if you’ve been imprisoned, persecuted, or killed. And it’s quite common for asylum seekers to not want to stay in their host country long term. Some have no choice, but many want to return as soon as it’s safe.

People have already returned to Syria and Afghanistan for eg, despite the danger of civil wars and crushing poverty. Bosnian refugees returned home when they were still being targeted, beaten and executed. The pull of “home” is really strong.

Also we know that not “all” men leave. Men are staying and fighting where they can. Iran and the current protests for women’s rights is a bit of an unusual exception - women seem to be staying and fighting, so what’s different? This article sums it up pretty well, especially this final part:

“Finally, campaigns with women participating prominently are more resilient in the face of repression, in part because inclusive protests are more likely to remain nonviolent. State violence against female protesters can backfire; attacking women and children is often seen as illegitimate and a sign of government weakness. This was poignantly seen in Iran’s 2009 protests, when Neda Agha-Soltan, a 26-year-old woman, was shot and killed, becoming a martyr for the movement. During the current unrest, reports suggest that the Iranian regime has arrested over 8,000 people, including hundreds of children, and killed more than 200 protesters. When young and old, women and children are treated this way, it poses a serious risk to the perceived legitimacy of the security forces’ use of force.”
www.foreignaffairs.com/iran/irans-women-frontlines

As we’ve already seen on this thread, men are “fair game” in some people’s eyes. Men protesting are a “threat” and can be killed. Women and children can’t, unless you want to destroy your government’s image.

Bilateral agreements with governments to process applications outside of the UK - I agree this would solve a lot of issues. However, since leaving the EU, highly unlikely to
happen. Also I doubt this would totally solve the problem- case in point - The Dublin Convention, whilst looking good on paper, did little to stem the flow.

@Maze76 Bilateral agreements would be a huge step in the right direction. Did we ever find out why the UK rejected France’s offer to open a migrant processing centre in France for those looking to come to the UK? From this article it seems to be because Johnson and Macron had a spat but surely that can’t be all?

amp.france24.com/en/france/20211129-french-minister-urges-uk-to-open-legal-migration-route-amid-channel-crisis

Agree re the Dublin convention - even without that the UK has deported criminals and illegal immigrants, and returned failed asylum seekers (well, theoretically on that last one - they seem to be failing in practise.)

BewareTheLibrarians
The majority of Albanian asylum seekers granted leave to remain in the UK in the past year were trafficked women

The majority of sex trafficked women in the UK appear to be Romanian;

According to the Salvation Army, only 18 Romanian women entered their support services last year, compared with more than 416 Albanian, 78 Chinese, 48 Nigerian and 46 British nationals.
“The slavery statistics don’t paint an accurate picture of sex trafficking in the UK,” says Huddleston [a trafficking victim support specialist]. “I’ve worked with over 600 victims from 24 different nationalities but the vast majority of women we find in brothels linked to organised crime and sexual exploitation are Romanian. Yet Romanian women are reluctant to go to the police and those who eventually report they have been exploited rarely agree to go into the NRM so they are never counted as victims.”

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/nov/30/silent-victims-the-hidden-romanian-women-exploited-in-the-uk-sex-trade

Also Romanian men trafficked to work in car washes etc.

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/nov/30/silent-victims-the-hidden-romanian-women-exploited-in-the-uk-sex-trade
www.itv.com/news/border/2021-07-30/two-carlisle-car-wash-bosses-jailed-for-modern-slavery-crimes

Possibly explains this;

Over 60% of EU citizens stopped at ports by UK post-Brexit are Romanian.
Lawyers say government data for first six months of 2021 raises questions over possible racial profiling.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/15/over-60-eu-citizens-stopped-ports-uk-brexit-romanian

Duplicated link above - meant this one;

www.northantstelegraph.co.uk/news/crime/romanian-slaves-worked-in-corby-factories-and-car-washes-before-europol-investigation-smashed-gang-apart-update-3694773

@BewareTheLibrarians Thanks for posting the link- I never knew anything about this.. it seems like this would have been a sensible approach rather than people risking their lives In dinghy’s!

Thanks for those links @Clavinova depressing reading. I hope my first paragraph was clear that if was referencing Albanians only, not Albanians as a proportion of other nationalities, because the exploitation of Romanian girls and women is horrific.

Modern slavery has been a huge problem in the east of England going back years, with agricultural an easy workforce to exploit, especially Romanian and Lithuanian workers. I saw mainly legal seasonal workers who had had their passport taken by their gangmasters, and who were forced to hand over their earnings “for safekeeping until you go home.” Of course their earnings were never given back. They were working for no salary, couldn’t leave as their passport had been removed, and didn’t have enough English to go to the police. Thank god for whistleblowers.

Thank god for whistleblowers

Indeed.

Not having thought about Albania much before it seems there is a labour shortage but emigration is high amongst youth, the workforce situation is a paradox apparently. The jobs are there but younger people are keen to leave.

china-cee.eu/2022/05/27/albania-social-briefing-unemployment-and-labor-shortage-the-paradoxes-of-the-albanian-workforce/

Arrivals are part of the problem though. The graph you were shown is deceptive in that it goes in 20,000 increments on the y-axis, and reports #s in 6month totals instead of annual totals. So it deceives the eye into thinking it’s only a small increase in arrivals that’s happened more gradually than it had. This chart from the BBC is on a much clearer scale.

The Home Office annual budget & staff requests are limited to matching the amount needed for the #s arriving from the prior year - which they never get- their budget and staff increases are always cut down. So each year starting with 2020 the need has been more than double what the funding & staff given to the Home Office can complete.

If anyone’s wondering why we have such a big problem with trafficking & modern slavery in the UK, this is worth a read.

In 2015 the govt appointed an independent anti-slavery commissioner. Her role finished this year, and her position remains (as far as I can see) unfilled. Ahead of her final report, she wrote the following:

“The great weakness in the system is the decision making process which is subject to significant delays. In 2021 the average number of days a victim waited for a conclusive grounds decision was 568 days and some victims have been waiting since 2016 for a decision. This is completely unacceptable and I while I have supported the Home Office in their work to reform the system it remains dysfunctional.”

As well as being hugely traumatic for the victim, this leaves the trafficking rings operating without oversight/prosecution.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/independent-anti-slavery-commissioners-annual-report-2021-to-2022/independent-anti-slavery-commissioners-annual-report-2021-to-2022-accessible

🙄 The French Revolution is a bad example because it was the impoverished young men and women in power then and they were enacting a full scale genocide on the upper class French, the aristocracy and also the educated middle class (intelligentsia). And yes, many French refugees fled France during the Revolution. It’s easy to say “stay and fight” but harder to do when staying means certain death for you and your children by public execution or by roving mobs.

And what of their wives, children, family? Left behind to face the oppressors?

@Discovereads while your graph is useful for showing the increase in numbers, the graph I posted intended to show the discrepancy between numbers arriving and the backlog of cases. Without a backlog of cases, the rising numbers would not have caused the situation we have now. Without the number of cases we’re receiving, the backlog would still be causing a problem in terms of accommodation and cost.

The Home Office was warned many times that their policies would increase boat crossings. They had their opportunity to increase budget and staffing to meet this need, yet they chose not to.

They were warned by the Borders watchdog, the UN refugee agency and the Foreign Affairs Committee. Priti Patel in particular had no excuse for being unprepared:

“As a backbencher in 2019, [Patel] was a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee that warned the government that the collapse of safe routes would lead to growing numbers of people taking to the sea,”
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/channel-crossings-warnings-priti-patel-b1965034.html?amp

(Also yes the graph I posted is a nightmare to read but it has to be increments of 20,000 to fit on the size of the massive backlog! 20k vs 140k is never going to sit easily on the same tiny graph.)

Stop calling Refugees illegal immigrants. They are not. They are perfectly entitled to seek Asylum here.

This muddled thinking is the result of believing in emotive right-wing rag headlines, designed for division and hatred and to divert you from the massive dump this government are taking on working class people.

Besides, do you REALLY think the Home Officeand fat cat lawyers are going to give up the massive income they rake in from dealing with Asylum applications? If you think they will and that they care a jot what you think, you are seriously deluded.

I read an article online yesterday about some elderly people who were unable to heat their homes. 90% of replies along the lines of: well the weather is mild/in the 1940s we had to manage/theres plenty of help out there/why aren't they fine? I manage well enough.

Sums up this country with it's hypocritical schadenfreude attitude pretty well.

Forever in crisis because even if there were no immigrants here you'd still be shafted, alongside looking for reasons why your in crisis neighbour shouldnt be helped because 'Im alright jack'.

@Cuppasoupmonster I posted this yesterday but reposted with a bit added. Hope it’s helpful.

A mix of cultural differences, safety factors, and the problems causing people to leave makes a difference here.

First and importantly is safety. Many women and children cannot physically cope with the journey across Africa/ME/Europe to the EU. As well as being physically very tough, there’s a huge risk of trafficking and sexual abuse against women and children. Don’t know if you saw the scenes from Melilla on the Moroccan/Spanish border, where asylum seekers were pushed out of Morocco towards Spanish territory by Moroccan authorities, and then attacked by border forces on both sides. People died in the panic. People know these risks before you even get to the French coast and onto a dinghy and won’t take their wives/sisters/children because of the risks.

In some cases, depending on the country, young men are targeted/persecuted whereas women are “safer”, so the family will use all their money to “save” the person they most feel is at risk. They can often not afford to save more than one person.

Young men may not have families (children and wives) as they are still young. The older generation are much less likely to leave their homeland.

Many (80-something% of all refugees) do stay with their families, in refugee camps close to their home country.