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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why it's bad to 'beg for sweets' but not bad to drag around a burning effigy of a Catholic while begging for money?

170 replies

TheWindBeneathMyFlaps · 25/10/2022 08:33

Is it because one is perceived as American by people who are a little bit thick

DH is 50. He went trick or treating and carved vegetables. He's from Essex.
We have photos of him and all his little friends dressed up.

Where did this idea that it's American come from? And even if it was American would that be enough to not celebrate something that kids enjoy? When the UK was off spreading its culture forcibly all over the world that was fine, but when one of its former colonies spread a little back, it's offensive.

OP posts:
Abra1t · 26/10/2022 13:48

Abhannmor · 26/10/2022 13:29

Yes , Baptists and Pentecostalists would probably see Halloween as a bit dodgy. Ditto Mayday traditions I suppose. So would Presbyterians in theory? Yet Halloween survived in Scotland .

My presbyterian husband used to carve turnips at Halloween as a boy.

Squirrelsnut · 26/10/2022 13:56

Every single year without fail, there are any number of (increasingly) acrimonious threads about this.

Some people like Hallowe'en, some don't.

Some English people did trick or treating as kids, some didn't. I didn't (Cambridgeshire) but I believe those who say they did!

Chill.

Mobiledesktop · 26/10/2022 13:59

I was brought up a church going Catholic but as I've got older I realize that England standing against the Roman church was hugely symbolic and significant.
I see the attempt to blow up the King as a small part of the reformation and it's a good chance to teach the kids a little history.

Staringatafence · 26/10/2022 14:01

My issue is the horrible, bratty kids! I tried handing out to trick or treaters one year but I got impolite children, “can we have more than one”, no please or thank yous. Sod that. It is begging. Lights off and curtains drawn in my house!

Abhannmor · 26/10/2022 14:12

Abra1t · 26/10/2022 13:48

My presbyterian husband used to carve turnips at Halloween as a boy.

I'd say a lot of religious rules are observed only in the breech as they say . My Sikh neighbours have a Christmas tree and so on.

I did have a Presbyterian housemate whose church wouldn't allow a crib , when he was a lad. . Can't recall why now. Might have been an extreme sect..

Pixiedust1234 · 26/10/2022 14:14

I had forgotten about the awful wet turnip/candle stink. Think we only did it three times before our mother said no 😂

When I was growing up trick or treat meant give out sweets or having a trick placed on you. Originally that was emptying your bin everywhere but ended up as having your window broken or car scratched etc. Everybody pretended not to be home/lights out, it really wasn't a pleasant time.

Penny for a guy stopped when kids couldn't buy their own fireworks like crackers/Jack in the box.

Mumoblue · 26/10/2022 14:29

I’m 32 and have never been asked for a penny for the guy 😂
I went to a Guy Fawkes night bonfire as a kid, but never had any idea that we were supposed to be somehow “punishing” the Guy. My mother is a big history buff and told me the story in a very neutral “think of how things would be different if he had succeeded” kind of way, so we saw it as just marking a significant event that didn’t happen.

Also I love Halloween. I don’t get why some people are so grumpy about it. Most times if you don’t put up decorations nobody will knock on your door. I enjoy seeing the kids having fun, and my kid enjoys trick or treating.

montysma1 · 26/10/2022 14:38

TheWindBeneathMyFlaps · 25/10/2022 08:51

When did I say it wasn't? I think I made it quite clear that they were two separate holidays and that one is perceived as American, and therefore not ok. It is often referred to as 'begging for sweets' though, where I've never heard anyone complain about begging for money a week later for Bonfire Night.

Erm.......its not all about America.
Never in my life have I thought of Halloween as American.

WalkingOnTheCracks · 26/10/2022 14:57

This reply has been deleted

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ChiefWiggumsBoy · 26/10/2022 16:31

In my experience if you haven't grown up with it, you don't care about it.

The 'it's American' comes from the over-commercialisation (is that a word?) and the plastic tat that comes with it.

PlinkPlonkFizz · 26/10/2022 17:01

I think Halloween in its purest form is Irish in origin but was celebrated in many European countries as All Hallows' Eve was important in the pagan and Christian calendars.

My Grandmother always referred to it as 'Halloweve" (from Northern England) but I was in South of Ireland in Cork for holidays and their celebration seemed more pagan somehow with bonfires and a more eerie feeling. Maybe it was just atmospheric!

The Guy is definitely anti-Catholicism of the post-Reformation period in England.

ancientgran · 26/10/2022 17:03

etulosba · 25/10/2022 21:32

Let's bring torture and capital punishment back then, after all if they know the consequences it's OK isn't it.

Society has moved on.

We shouldn’t judge our ancestors actions by today’s moral standards.

So we celebrate them? Have a bonfire, have fireworks but burning effigies? It is offensive.

CulturePigeon · 26/10/2022 17:10

Haven't read the replies - I shamelessly admit - I'm just responding to your OP.

Agree that the whole rational behind Bonfire Night is gruesome. My sister's birthday is No 5th and from early childhood I was horrified by the burning of the guy. You'd have to have no imagination at all to not mind that!

But I take issue with your wording...he's not being burned because he's a Catholic - Guy Fawkes was executed (hanging, drawing, quartering - yuk) because he was a terrorist. Horrible, but let's be accurate, at least!

etulosba · 26/10/2022 17:54

So we celebrate them? Have a bonfire, have fireworks but burning effigies? It is offensive.

Not to me.

MapleLeafForever · 26/10/2022 18:10

I grew up in Canada in the 70s/80s. It was a much nicer holiday there somehow! We dressed up as anything, not necessarily scary or Hallowe'en related - the idea was the disguise. i think it originated with the idea that you were disguising yourself so that the spirits and ghosts that roamed the earth that night wouldn't recognise/get you. But by the time I was doing it, it was just about disguising yourself in whatever costume you wanted, and people were very creative with it at times; others not so much. You could wear Hallowe'en related stuff like witches, ghosts or pumpkins, or anything else - but it didn't tend to be full on horror or anything like it is here.

Pretty much the whole neighbourhood took part, whether they had kids or not, so you could go from house to house; the darkened ones you didn't go to, but it wasn't that common. Shops sold packs of Hallowe'en candy, so people would have stocked up. You also got a box at school to collect coins for Unicef. We either said Trick or Treat, or Hallowe'en Apples. (And sometimes did get apples or nuts as well as sweets, or homemade things). Your parents checked it all before you ate any of it. Sometimes you were asked for a joke or a song (we usually sang some Christmas carol with funny words, like Jingle Bells). I lived in a city so never got up to mischief; my cousins who lived rurally, and my dad when he was younger, told tales of mischief that they got up to.

It was primarily children up to about age 12 that went out, but older than that still had Hallowe'en parties. You'd often wear your costume to school in the primary schools, and the middle school age would have things like Hallowe'en activities and discos. Not so much at high school though. Clubs like Brownies etc would have 'haunted houses' or other Hallowe'en activities, crafts etc, and shopping malls and stuff would sometimes have sweets or competitions etc.

it was never seen as begging, never aggressive, etc. Wasn't an unpleasant or scary holiday particularly, just slightly scary fun. I guess it's a bit more along the lines of Scottish traditions perhaps.

healthadvice123 · 26/10/2022 18:37

Penny for the guy stopped years ago in most areas
Tbh I never knew anything religious was related to it
Obviously nevet paid attention at school
Some people do Halloween some don't

Abhannmor · 26/10/2022 19:08

William Shakespeare's dad seems to have been a secret Catholic. Fined for non attendance at the new fangled Church of England.

His first cousin was Robert Catesby. Mastermind of the Catesby Conspiracy or Gunpowder Plot. There's got to be a movie in there somewhere.

WalkingOnTheCracks · 27/10/2022 10:39

CulturePigeon · 26/10/2022 17:10

Haven't read the replies - I shamelessly admit - I'm just responding to your OP.

Agree that the whole rational behind Bonfire Night is gruesome. My sister's birthday is No 5th and from early childhood I was horrified by the burning of the guy. You'd have to have no imagination at all to not mind that!

But I take issue with your wording...he's not being burned because he's a Catholic - Guy Fawkes was executed (hanging, drawing, quartering - yuk) because he was a terrorist. Horrible, but let's be accurate, at least!

To be pedantically accurate, he wasn’t hanged, drawn and quartered, though that’s what he was sentenced to.

wiki: Immediately before his execution on 31 January, Fawkes fell from the scaffold where he was to be hanged and broke his neck, thus avoiding the agony of being hanged, drawn and quartered.

GordonShakespearedoesChristmas · 27/10/2022 18:35

Pottedpalm · 25/10/2022 08:38

The ‘burning of an effigy’ is Bonfire night, not Halloween.

I think that was OP's point...

GordonShakespearedoesChristmas · 27/10/2022 18:37

etulosba · 25/10/2022 08:39

I’ve never seen anyone dragging a burning effigy of a Catholic, or anyone else for that matter.

I’m over sixty and used to make candle lanterns out of turnips when I was a child in northern England. They stank. Pumpkins weren’t invented then.

No demanding sweets or money with menaces though

There's not supposed to be any menaces. The 'trick' is just meant to be flour.
Anyone who's ever seen "Meet Me In St Louis" knows that! 😊😊

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