To wonder why it's bad to 'beg for sweets' but not bad to drag around a burning effigy of a Catholic while begging for money?

[TheWindBeneathMyFlaps]

Is it because one is perceived as American by people who are a little bit thick

DH is 50. He went trick or treating and carved vegetables. He's from Essex.
We have photos of him and all his little friends dressed up.

Where did this idea that it's American come from? And even if it was American would that be enough to not celebrate something that kids enjoy? When the UK was off spreading its culture forcibly all over the world that was fine, but when one of its former colonies spread a little back, it's offensive.

I don't like the burning of the guy, the man was tortured and murdered why do we want to commemorate that? It is something to be ashamed of.

OP when was the last time you saw anybody asking penny for the guy? I don't think I've seen that in well over 30 years.

I think the parties and organised events thing is happening everywhere. I think it's down to people being more risk averse with their kids maybe? It's a shame because half the fun was running around in the dark and like you said, that light paganism for children 😁

Samhain may or may not be ‘ far older’ than the feast of All Souls. No one knows, because as the ‘ celebrants’ were illiterate, we have no real records of any such ceremonies to compare.

If it really was the festival of the day when the world pivots between summer and winter on day length, though, it would logically be held at the Equinox, or the day after.

Most of the Pagan or Celtic ‘ origins’ of festivals are largely Victorian and post Victorian romanticism, like most of the ‘Druid’ lore. If you have no writing, you can’t leave records.

I wouldn’t be happy about the penny for the guy thing.

OP have you actually heard the same people disapprove of one and say they’re ok with the other?

OP when was the last time you saw anybody asking penny for the guy? I don't think I've seen that in well over 30 years.

I'm from NI, where it's common to burn effigies of living catholic figures like The Pope and nationalist politicians. I'll take begging for sweets any day of the week.

i always understood the "trick" in "trick or treat" was to the person handing out the goodies. Would you get a treat (chocolate, something nice like fruit) or would you get a trick (brussels sprout wrapped in a chocolate wrapper)?

Unlike in Scotland where i understood the kids did a little turn (poem, song, whatever) and were rewarded with something tasty.

The Scottish way is to do a ‘turn’, a joke or a dance or something. It’s not a trick. ‘Trick or treat’ means give me a treat or I’ll do a trick on you?

I don't like the burning of the guy, the man was tortured and murdered why do we want to commemorate that? It is something to be ashamed of.

meh. He knew the consequences if he was caught trying to blow up the king and parliament. Gruesome to celebrate it, but if it hadn't been him in effergy on the bonfires it would have been the pope or someone else.

Gaelic is one of the oldest written languages in the world. There are written records of Celtic culture going back to the dark ages. I agree there is a lot of made up Victorian romanticism about lots of ‘ancient’ things but it’s not the case that we don’t have evidence of Samhain going back much further. For one thing, the Gaelic word for November is Samhain.

Halloween is based on Samhain and there are better ways to mark it than knocking on strangers' doors demanding sweets. And I don't care if I'm no fun, etc. :)

I think it depends where you are in the UK as for some parts it is an American import, even though we've celebrated it in other parts longer than in the USA. The influence is entirely American for some and that's why I think some people don't like it. So I don't think they're thick. They're just seeing it from their regional pov. I don't like though when they assume other parts of the UK are the same. I also hate that all the things you can buy in shops is Americanised. In Scotland we traditionally call it "guising" and the children doing it are "guisers" but you won't get anything with those words on it. It's all "trick and treat".

Halloween has always been a big celebration in my lifetime.

Granted we got fruit and nuts, but we didn't have convenient cheap € stores then.

We collect our loot, play Halloween games, tell ghost stories.

We'd be waiting to hear the banshee scream.

Absolutely terrifying fun.

Children only knock on doors with decorations, that is the rule.

These days it isn't really 'demanding sweets' though is it?

it's a social contract. Those who want to give sweets to children put out a sign like a pumpkin or similar. The children dress up and knock on the door. Everyone knows what to expect.

If children knock where there is no sign then it is an issue I agree.

there are better ways to mark it than knocking on strangers' doors demanding sweets. And I don't care if I'm no fun, etc. :)

My children would disagree. Not that they're 'demanding' anything. They visit decorated houses and ask politely in an area where people celebrate Halloween enthusiastically.

*In Scotland we traditionally call it "guising" and the children doing it are "guisers" but you won't get anything with those words on it. It's all "trick and treat".

We say "Help the Halloween party".*

That's bad form if its the traditional name. It might open a market for a creative person for next year.

Halloween is not an American tradition.

Correct, but the over-commercialisation of it absolutely is American. As a child of the 70s, we just did some apple bobbing at home for Halloween.

My children would disagree. Not that they're 'demanding' anything. They visit decorated houses and ask politely in an area where people celebrate Halloween enthusiastically

Of course they would disagree, they get sweets out of it 😆 but yeah, if everyone's happy, no big deal.

I think I last saw "penny for the guy" around here maybe 10 years ago? (big Scottish city) It had bugger all to do with an actual guy that was going on a bonfire or collecting to buy fireworks for the bonfire celebration which was the original purpose presumably. It was usually a teddy bear tied to an old pram and was absolutely a way for 8-14 year olds to do some community sanctioned begging for sweetie money.

Guising involves telling a joke or singing a song in exchange for a treat. Yes, kids now mostly say "trick or treat" but they're still expected to do their party piece, and often absolutely insist on doing said piece even if you'd really rather hand over the mini mars bars and get on with your night 😆

but yeah, if everyone's happy, no big deal.

Well quite. Climb down from the moral high ground then.

And what you find normal still comes down to what you were raised with.

I don’t like either “celebration”

my 19yr old was jokingly complaining last night that we never took her out guising and she was deprived of this experience.

she then came back to me 20minutes later and said she was glad we didn’t do it!

i just don’t see the fun in it.

I’m a bit torn. Halloween is quite fun in a way, kids love it. We’ll do a Pumpkin on Saturday and I have sweets ready for Monday.

That said, it’s annoying that some of the same neighbours who’ll be tatting on the door at 6pm on Monday all smiles and ‘hiya’ are the same who barely nod a greeting when you pass them in the street the other 364 days of the year.

Well, when you think that Irish Catholics are in an occupied land and-unlike Ukraine-no-one gives a shit and that a Catholic is the only religion actually banned from sitting on the throne, it's hardly surprising that a burning effigy of the Pope is carried through the streets of Lewes on Bonfire Night.

Halloween is not "meaningless nonsense". Samhain is a pagan festival originating from an ancient Celtic spiritual tradition. It was started to welcome in the harvest and usher in “the dark half of the year.”

I couldn't care less about November 5, have never even acknowledged it but I wouldn't call it 'meaningless nonsense'.

Halloween isn't American, they are just exceptional at consumerism and that has spread here over the last 30 years. When we were kids you couldn't even get any Halloween decorations and now people have full movie scenes on their front lawns