sick of ‘gentle parents’

[strawberrysugar23]

i’m so fed up of gentle parenting - just been to soft play and a boy probably about 4 years old was whacking my 18 month old, pushing her down, kicked her in the face. obviously i kept intervening and actually told him off myself but his parent was nowhere to be seen. once i’d told him off he moved onto a different toddler whose mum approached me and asked if i knew who his parent was. said parent eventually came over and said ‘aw is he being rough?’ i said yes he’s being very aggressive to multiple toddlers, has hit/kicked/pushed and keeps following them around even after other parents are intervening. and her response was ‘ohh (child’s name) you need to be more gentle!’ in a soft voice then walked off and he continued.

sorry but wtf. if your child is as feral as that surely you say right we’re leaving and actually tell them off instead of that response? seems to be a common occurrence too, always seems to be the most aggressive kids who are being gentle parented

@LolaSmiles Great posts. I always liked Janet Lansbury for this - no guilt for the parent in imposing boundaries, no shame for the child in not liking them.

@mathanxiety Nobody is claiming that gently parented kids, or indeed any kids, or indeed any humans - are perfect - though the best behaved kids I know are the ones who are gently parented well - and by that I mean have parents who hold boundaries but do it respectfully. That is basically what it comes down to.

It’s not about there being a ‘pure form’ but about the fact that parents who allow their kids to carry on with the types of antisocial behaviour described here are basically falling into the permissive camp, whether they think it or not, and this is not something that gentle parenting advocates, if you actually read the books.

That said I absolutely agree that there are parents who see ‘not gentle’ parenting as abusive, and perhaps those are the ones who struggle with setting/holding boundaries. I was reflecting on the US thing earlier as I remember I used to be in a US centric FB group when my oldest was very small and I had to leave it because of the number of parents who were encouraging each other to basically ignore boundary setting in favour of not inhibiting their child’s spirit, or saying that it was developmentally appropriate for kindergarteners to still be hitting, and so on. I’d forgotten about that until this afternoon. Again, I really don’t witness this kind of parenting first hand where I live: the badly behaved kids here are always the ones who are being ignored by parents but get the promise of a good smack once the parents cotton on to what’s going on.

I have also seen this quite a few times, I think they’d rather not have to deal with it and hope another parent does, that or oblivious! I intervene as much as it feels uncomfortable as not my child, more the safety of my own. Seen parents leave birthday parties - always the ones you wish stayed to monitor their own kids.

I have been totally put off certain soft play places, also on another side saw two Dads get on toddler sit on ride toys and go down a big kids slide in a soft play arena (term time so advertised for all kids 4 or under), small kids in ball pool at end of slide and Dads crashing in at high speed. Staff looked on, carnage! Then you have to speak to parents. However on the whole most kids and parents are good x

Math that is definitely why it appealed to me, although also why I don't use it any more.

Lola exactly 100% this. The emotion thing was a bit of a game changer for me actually, because I was aware that all the "stop crying, babies cry" wasn't what I wanted to do, and I had taken on from How To Talk that saying things like "Oh but you do love your sister really!" is dismissive, but I hadn't made the jump that actually even a lot of things that seemed gentle and supportive to me were my discomfort with my child having a negative experience or feeling upset and even though I thought I was dealing with it sensibly, I was trying to fix it, a lot of the time. And now I see it I can't unsee it. You see parents struggling with boundaries because they think from some gentle parenting resources that the child is supposed to be happy and willing at all times without any conflict or disagreement at all which just isn't realistic.

I see plenty of 'gentle parenting' with lots of overtalking and ineffectual reactions here. I didn't see much when I taught early years in inner city London! We spent a lot of time helping the children process their emotions in acceptable ways. Small children can hit, bite, grab but need to be taught things like "I don't like that", "I feel sad", "stop", "can I have" etc. Although, it is a whole other thing when it's your own child.

You're confusing gentle parenting with shit parenting.

There’s a vocally gentle parent at my kid’s nursery. Her son is a thug. He hits, he grabs kids’ hair and wrenches them to the ground by it, he pushed over a little girl and booted her in the face in front of me at collection one day. She was crying her eyes out. The nursery staff were absolutely beside themselves trying to get this kid to stop. He is a devious, violent little arsehole. His little brother is the same. He’s moved up a room now thank fuck and so my kid is safe again, Christ knows how the next lot are getting on. I happened upon them all today at collection and he picked up a massive flinty rock and tried to throw it at my kid as we walked to the car. The mum said “darling, put the rock down, it’s very heavy! tinkly laugh You’re a big strong boy, I know.”

I stared at her agog. What she should have said is “PUT THAT ROCK DOWN! We do NOT throw rocks at people. We do not throw anything at people.”

It landed about a foot away from us but still. What the fuck.

This is probably a bit outing if his mother is on here. 😬

You see parents struggling with boundaries because they think from some gentle parenting resources that the child is supposed to be happy and willing at all times without any conflict or disagreement at all which just isn't realistic.

Yes, this.

And actually, when you look closely at it, it's very, very controlling if that is the reason for a parent to adopt this approach. They're saying something along the lines of, "There's no such thing as a wrong feeling" but they're still trying to steer the feelings into something more aligned with everyone else's feelings and affect.

hopefully his mother does see this and realises she needs to reign her kid in then

Nobody is claiming that gently parented kids, or indeed any kids, or indeed any humans - are perfect - though the best behaved kids I know are the ones who are gently parented well - and by that I mean have parents who hold boundaries but do it respectfully. That is basically what it comes down to.

What you are talking about there is authoritative parenting, which is consistent, attentive, and not harsh.

Parents who cling doggedly to the label 'gentle parenting' are doing so for reasons within themselves, maybe trying to differentiate themselves from their own parents, or the parenting of the culture they were exposed to as children. Or maybe they confuse the terms authoritarian and authoritative.

Gentle parenting springs from positive psychology. The parenting form, positive parenting, advocates ignoring the bad out of faith that despite all indications to the contrary, the child will one day turn his behaviour around himself, thanks to modeling of dealing with emotions and interpersonal interactions, hugs and assurances of unconditional love while the child is emotionally disregulated, and comments on the child's emotional state instead of reprimands or firm requests to stop unacceptable behaviour or speech, and avoidance of introducing any sense of shame into the child's life, which is what is said to happen when you issue a rebuke, a firm, "Stop that!" or any comment directing the child to take note of the effect their behaviour has had on someone else. Any intervention prompted by behaviour is supposed to make the child aware of his emotions and ultimately to learn to regulate them himself. Shame is old school, and bad.

(I'm not talking about screeching or sarcasm or insults leveled at a child here. I'm not talking about humiliation - I'm talking about any invitation to a child to 'Treat others as you would like to be treated,' however it's expressed - 'Look at Daisy, she's crying because you bit her and her arm hurts.')

What you get after 8 years or so of that is kids who really haven't learned that other people are real, three dimensional beings who are emotionally and physically hurt by being bitten, and are really surprised - actually outraged - when they get bitten back.

@Herejustforthisone Everyone will jump on you and tell you that isn’t gentle parenting because gently parented children are kind, quiet, loving etc. but the description of the child is also my experience with the children of self-proclaimed gentle parents.

The mother is very vocal about her desire to ‘gentle parent’. I’ve heard her quite vehemently reinforcing her ideals into the nursery staff. She wants them to mirror her style too. That’s the only way I know. Otherwise I’d have just thought she was a useless parent.

She won’t say no, raise her voice, scold or admonish. Apparently she ‘redirects’ energies into something more positive. Didn’t fucking happen with the rock today though, did it? Honestly, it would have been awful if it had hit my kid. I’d have probably thrown it at her.

She’s very posh, her children probably want for nothing, but they’re turning into nasty little shits.

@Herejustforthisone
The concept of energy is a part of gentle / positive parenting. The terminology is supposed to be non-judgemental.

I'm not talking about screeching or sarcasm or insults leveled at a child here. I'm not talking about humiliation - I'm talking about any invitation to a child to 'Treat others as you would like to be treated,' however it's expressed - 'Look at Daisy, she's crying because you bit her and her arm hurts
You can use a a gentle parenting approach to do that.

In gentle parenting, which is under the umbrella of authoritative parenting, children's feelings and opinions are validated, heard, and the parent is responsive to these.

And when the parent has set firm boundaries and guidelines for the child, the parent validates the child's emotions while also maintaining the boundaries.

The tools of gentle parenting are connection, communication, and consistency

Limit setting not as a necessary evil, but as an act of love and respect.

Robin Einsig did a good blog on limit setting and dropping the rope, and she explains how some parents hear one thing and turn it into something else.
E.g. she says sometimes we have to 'drop the rope'. What she means and explains is a nuanced reflection on the limits we've chosen as parents, whether they're appropriate, and how best to respond in a situation. What some parents hear (especially if they're relying on sound bite parenting advice or snippets on social media) is 'if your child is having a tantrum because you've turned the telly off/said to put toys away then dropping the rope means giving in because it doesn't matter'. That's just permissive though.

I've heard people say they're using A,B, C method for sleep training or for weaning but it doesn't mean they're actually doing it. Sometimes it's that they've picked and chosen which parts work for them (fine), and others say they're doing it but all evidence says otherwise (thinking about the trend for everyone saying they do baby led weaning, but actually are doing the good old fashioned mix of finger food and purees from an adult). Same with gentle parenting/positive parenting/respectful parenting/any other name people give for parenting with calmly and respectful boundaries and without irrelevant, punitive sanctions.

What you get after 8 years or so of that is kids who really haven't learned that other people are real, three dimensional beings

This is what’s always struck me about this approach; it’s fine if you and your kid live in a vacuum, but we all have to live in a society with others and their feelings and the overriding social norms that come with that. And - as I said upthread - because we tend not to be direct with others, I think it’s really important as a parent to teach your kids about that, because other people won’t. And that involves them learning when they’re pissing other people off! (Someone’s going to come along and say there’s a perfect gentle parenting way to do this - but I struggle to see what can be an effective substitute for a child seeing that their behaviour is irritating from your own reactions. Or being told that something that they have done is outwith the boundary of good manners and that other people will think that they are rude if they do it. Because, of course, the natural consequence of rude behaviour would be that someone tells you that you’ve been rude. Or is rude back to you. But that isn’t how our society works. Most likely, they’ll smile to your face and bitch about you behind your back, so that all sorts of other people also think you’re rude. And that may be an issue for you, but you may well never know about it. So not the best outcome.) As a parent, you’re uniquely placed to have these frank conversations with kids which can help their social and emotional development enormously - precisely because they know you love them and so you don’t need to sugarcoat everything. It puts far too much responsibility for critical thinking on children if we expect them to infer these social norms for themselves from a wider discussion about their own feelings and choices.

@WimpoleHat it happens even within families. Child with the stronger personality dictates what happens for everyone, whilst other, less vocal kids miss out. Common denominator is always some wringing- wet parent patting themselves on the back for allowing Fenella to express herself and move at her own pace.

It’s not working though is it? Because her thug child threw a rock at my child, and she praised him for how strong he was. Fuck that for a bunch of crunchy nonsense.

It’s not working though is it? Because her thug child threw a rock at my child, and she praised him for how strong he was. Fuck that for a bunch of crunchy nonsense.

That's not gentle parenting. That's just shitty parenting. Then those parents wonder why their child ends up being disliked in the playground.

I really wish lazy parents owned their own laziness instead of hijacking a phrase that those working in the field openly say involves consequences and boundaries.

I think they cling to the phrase gentle parenting because they think giving it a name can justify their own laziness and permissiveness.

YABU. That’s not gentle parenting.

i was wondering if the kid was actually even four as well.

Took DS to a birthday party when he was 4, and there was another boy who towered above him, but seemed to have some sort of developmental delay because he was behaving like a toddler (snatching toys, hitting, delayed speech).

I was chatting to his mum later, and yep it turned out he was actually just a very tall two year old, behaving completely developmentally appropriately.

I do agree that this particular parent wasn’t supervising him well enough regardless of age, but lots of parents do that at soft play 🤷‍♀️

I gentle parent. What you've described isn't gentle parenting.

I've read this entire thread.

All I have to add is the effects of 'gentle parenting' is already manifesting in the workplace, and it's one of the reasons I'm so glad to be retired.

Young adults taking affront when asked to do what they're actually contracted to do, when they're actually contracted to do it without consulting their feelings about doing it at that moment. Expecting unremitting praise for achieving the simplest of tasks (often to a not very good standard) and becoming petulant/sulky if asked to re-do something that is not acceptable.

It's bonkers.

How the blinking heck do you know that your useless young colleagues have anything to do with gentle parenting? Sounds more like permissive and boundary less parenting to me, given what you've described. Unless you carry out some kind of half decent research into their early life, you can't say either way!

From this thread alone, it's obvious consultation of feelings / (imo, empty) endless praise are key tenets of 'gentle parenting'. These tenets lead to the expectation others i.e. not their parents will continue to consult/praise endlessly/inappropriately in the workplace. When this is not forthcoming, for the simplest task, it's sulks/petulance galore.

The subjects of permissive/boundaryless parenting present in quite a different manner. They are aggressive, demanding, arrogant, rude and very often absent. They are also most likely to indulge in presenteeism i.e. colleagues should be grateful for their presence irrespective of how much (little) effort they make once there i.e. we are lucky they have deigned to rock-in at whatever time they felt like it.

I can only speak my (and my colleagues') experience in the workplace.

@Trez1510 then you’ve just proved you don’t actually know about gentle parenting and are thinking of permissive.
fyi this is about praise and gentle parenting sarahockwell-smith.com/2017/04/08/how-to-praise-your-children-in-a-gentle-and-effective-way/