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Liz Truss has resigned. Part 4: The Desolation of Boris

802 replies

sunnydaytoday0 · 23/10/2022 23:21

Continuation from last thread, for those of us following all the action on Monday.

And yes I'm a LOTR fan, so tried to continue the theme in the thread title 😉

OP posts:
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9
BirmaBrite · 29/10/2022 20:53

Labour and Brexit is doom spiral territory so that concerns me a lot.

You keep saying doom spiral @MarshaBradyo , I have only heard it mentioned in relation to the Conservative governments fiscal policies. Can you explain what you mean by Labour and Brexit is doom spiral territory ? what do you envisage happening ?

Mirabai · 29/10/2022 21:07

Well there’s the line the parties will take at the next election and then there’s what they will be forced to do long term: the former will be to affirm Brexit and the latter will be to renegotiate SM + CU return. How fast that happens depends how bad our economic situation gets how quickly.

RedToothBrush · 29/10/2022 21:13

BirmaBrite · 29/10/2022 20:53

Labour and Brexit is doom spiral territory so that concerns me a lot.

You keep saying doom spiral @MarshaBradyo , I have only heard it mentioned in relation to the Conservative governments fiscal policies. Can you explain what you mean by Labour and Brexit is doom spiral territory ? what do you envisage happening ?

The weirdest thing in politics happened this week.

I saw an interview with a tory and a Labour MP. The tory said he thought we should consider the single market again but the Labour guy said no absolutely not.

The today I've seen an article in the spectator talking about the question everyone in politics is trying to avoid but we really need to revisit: Brexit.

Also this week. A poll saying rejoining has a 12% lead now. Twelve percent. Not just single market. Rejoining EU.

And the bbc have run a story on I think its bbc world saying that they've looked at the evidence and found the biggest barrier to growth is now Brexit.

Thats within the last week or so...

... I don't think we are done with this as a narrative either.

RedToothBrush · 29/10/2022 21:18

And just to stress The Spectator!!!
www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-everyone-knows-but-no-one-says-about-brexit
Article. Matthew Parris

Bottomline: we need Brexit in name only with a backdoor reentry via 'associate membership' to placate the dipshits who still don't get it.

BirmaBrite · 29/10/2022 21:50

@RedToothBrush It is weird. It feels like the odd head above the parapet at the moment, but more frequent and from less likely sources than before ?

RedToothBrush · 29/10/2022 23:02

BirmaBrite · 29/10/2022 21:50

@RedToothBrush It is weird. It feels like the odd head above the parapet at the moment, but more frequent and from less likely sources than before ?

I think its starting to be yes.

The fact that polling is showing a 12% lead for the EU, suggest the mood has changed significantly and there is a growing receptiveness to stories like this.

The Spectator being willing to publish that article - albeit from Matthew Parris - is interesting.

As is the willingness of the BBC to revisit this. See this from Ros Atkins from earlier this week. He is BBC World News rather than domestic news, but I think its still significant. Its somewhat shaking ground for the BBC to cover even for international news.
twitter.com/BBCRosAtkins/status/1586240654426148865

Even Tobias Elwood being quite open about needing to revisit things as part as a bbc interview , I do think is a shift, despite him always being one of the more pro-EU tories throughout. He couldn't have done that 12 to 18 months ago.

So yes, perhaps some usual suspects on this. But the tone seems to be that Truss's bust up with Braverman over wanting to roll back on harshness in order to facilitate growth is starting to open up a conversation over what exactly has stifled growth. Sunak is a commited Leaver and seems to support Braverman BUT he's also in a massive corner with little room to move too.

Free movement of people and being unable to fill crucial jobs I think is starting to be a real stinker of an issue for the government to merely gloss over. One of the issues thats starting to appear is that people in their 50s have unexpectedly taken early retirement post covid which has also compounded the problem and the government haven't got an answer to the labourer shortage with the unemployment rate so low. You can't even use the argument about scroungers on benefits in this context, cos the numbers don't add up.

Again this is a story thats going to increasingly blow up and we will start to hear a lot about. Its just starting to do that thing of resonating when a narrative in politics starts to enter the echo chambers. Its got a while to go before it starts to be a real trend, but its got all the hallmarks of being the 'next big thing'. I've seen a few things gradually creep up the public consciousness in recent years and this is one of those I think is going to take hold because we are starting to see major problems in recruitment in key services on a scale we haven't seen before. Because its going to start to match, people's lived experience, its going to start to catch attention and stick.

Also, there's a shift in tone in Sunak's approach to France. There's severely damaged relations with France in the EU due to both Truss and Johnson having massive foot in mouth moments. That might lead to a more receptive response from the EU, plus there is also a major shift in global politics following covid and the Ukraine War. The contextual tone is that Russia is a threat to European interests and that if there is a shift to a bipolar world between the US and China, then Europe (inc UK) will find itself as somewhat harmed in this squeeze. There's also some concerns about bi-lateral relations between Germany and France being very bad atm with a recent sumit getting cancelled over differences of agenda, at the last minute. These things all mean there is a different environment going forward across the board, and not just restricted to the UK.

Overall, I think we just hit a moment of sea change across the board, and direction of travel is about to start going a different way to the way it has for the last 6 years, both here and in the EU.

Remember Johnson 'got Brexit done', so the conversation about that is over. The conversation is now about 'building a new relationship with Europe'.

I counter this by saying there still the debacle of the British Bill of Rights and the Bill to revoke EU laws to consider and I think they will, at least at first, be pushed forward very heavily. However if Sunak clearly sees a need to do some heavy duty foreign diplomacy, and views his precedessors as having done significant damage, then he's going to hit some barriers pretty quickly.

Where this leads, I don't yet know and can't fully work out, in terms of how it will eventually play out, but there's a change happening.

GreenLunchBox · 29/10/2022 23:37

RedToothBrush · 29/10/2022 21:13

The weirdest thing in politics happened this week.

I saw an interview with a tory and a Labour MP. The tory said he thought we should consider the single market again but the Labour guy said no absolutely not.

The today I've seen an article in the spectator talking about the question everyone in politics is trying to avoid but we really need to revisit: Brexit.

Also this week. A poll saying rejoining has a 12% lead now. Twelve percent. Not just single market. Rejoining EU.

And the bbc have run a story on I think its bbc world saying that they've looked at the evidence and found the biggest barrier to growth is now Brexit.

Thats within the last week or so...

... I don't think we are done with this as a narrative either.

Maybe Sunak is driving this aboutface. He wants to succeed so he's leaking these stories while pretending to be pro-Brexit.

Sharming · 30/10/2022 00:27

Today this story dropped... question is, why did they sit on it until now?

Truss phone hacked

Blocked · 30/10/2022 00:37

Bear in mind Stormont has collapsed and is facing the second election in a year now due to the protocol issue. That alone is reason to reassess the position regarding Brexit and CU.

citroenpresse · 30/10/2022 00:43

Blocked · 30/10/2022 00:37

Bear in mind Stormont has collapsed and is facing the second election in a year now due to the protocol issue. That alone is reason to reassess the position regarding Brexit and CU.

Perhaps clearer to say Stormont is facing a second election in a year because of the DUP.

Blocked · 30/10/2022 00:48

@citroenpresse yes that's true. It's beyond me how they're allowed to get away with this carry on.

RedToothBrush · 30/10/2022 01:07

Sharming · 30/10/2022 00:27

Today this story dropped... question is, why did they sit on it until now?

Truss phone hacked

Simon Case and Braverman. Truss and Johnson.

4 days ago
Tim Shipman at shippersunbound
Suella Braverman did not mistakenly leak a meaningless document. She endlessly consulted a maverick. She deliberately emailed a policy doc not yet agreed to her pvt email. Then she sent it to John Hayes and someone she thought was his wife. Then lied to PM about when it was sent

The cabinet secretary Simon Case must be doing his nut about this. “Absolutely disgraceful” is one of the politer messages I’ve had from senior Tories

Case is still in position. Braverman is embroiled in her own on going security issues. Case apparently was unhappy at her security breech, which led to her original sacking. Then she's been effectively reinstated.

Shipman on the day of her reappointment was making a lot of noise about what would come out about her. We then got more revelations about home office security breeches.

Now this, which discredit Truss even more. And discredits Johnson too.

Johnson is said to be going to COP 27 unsolicited, when Sunak isn't. Its a deliberate play to undermine Sunak.

Braverman wasn't Sunak’s choice. He was compelled to reappoint her in return for her support which was instrumental in helping to eliminate Johnson from the leadership race. If Sunak does seek better relations with other countries Braverman is a liabity waiting to happen...

Its strategic fractionalism in the tory Party playing out still.

PerkingFaintly · 30/10/2022 01:20

Shock re Truss phone hack.

In the context of which, I doubt Braverman's behaviour is a liability waiting to happen. It's probably a liability which has already happened.

Fucking hell.

Sharming · 30/10/2022 01:46

I agree, they're imploding. They would have known about Truss' phone hacking before she ran for PM. Why the hell did they let her do it?

I'm also intrigued by the hint that there are 'personal' messages between Truss and Kwarteng amongst the stuff they've hacked. As well her her personal thoughts on Johnson. This is absolute dynamite stuff

LaGioconda · 30/10/2022 02:39

This report

LaGioconda · 30/10/2022 02:41

Oops, posted accidentally. Anyway, that report linked up there demonstrates utterly disgraceful,, cruel and illegal behaviour by Braverman. Surely she has to go?

Eve · 30/10/2022 05:03

Sharming · 30/10/2022 01:46

I agree, they're imploding. They would have known about Truss' phone hacking before she ran for PM. Why the hell did they let her do it?

I'm also intrigued by the hint that there are 'personal' messages between Truss and Kwarteng amongst the stuff they've hacked. As well her her personal thoughts on Johnson. This is absolute dynamite stuff

Weren’t Truss and Kwarteng on the leaked Whip list as having had an affair?

notimagain · 30/10/2022 06:21

Sharming · 30/10/2022 00:27

Today this story dropped... question is, why did they sit on it until now?

Truss phone hacked

To know that we need the full story, including what advice/instructions the security services were giving.

MarshaBradyo · 30/10/2022 06:25

I saw an interview with a tory and a Labour MP. The tory said he thought we should consider the single market again but the Labour guy said no absolutely not.

Interesting. Where did you see this?

AlecTrevelyan006 · 30/10/2022 06:54

Sharming · 30/10/2022 01:46

I agree, they're imploding. They would have known about Truss' phone hacking before she ran for PM. Why the hell did they let her do it?

I'm also intrigued by the hint that there are 'personal' messages between Truss and Kwarteng amongst the stuff they've hacked. As well her her personal thoughts on Johnson. This is absolute dynamite stuff

Truss and Kwarteng are ‘good friends’

Alexandra2001 · 30/10/2022 07:25

Truss using her private phone to discuss Govt policy with her friends........
Yet another reason she should be on trial, along with that idiot Johnson... who did similar as PM.

When you look at what the Tories have done to the UK.... must make people wonder if they aren't all in the pocket of Putin...

Do these people undergo any sort of security check?

RedToothBrush · 30/10/2022 07:31

This is a very astute comment

Phillips P OBrien AT PhillipsPObrien
All these stories about Truss coming out now are not so revealing about her,
but about how the system of protection (which the press had to abet) functioned to protect her while she had power. Same for Johnson.

In other words, journalists are often ignoring matters of legitimate public concern in order to protect their sources whilst someone is in power. As soon as they are out of power, they can drop the story, because the person at the centre of the story, no longer has ongoing power which reporters are keen to remain close access to for the best scope.

Its very relevant to debate, because traditionally the press was supposed to hold power to account on behalf of the public interest.

Instead journalists have increasingly put the self interest of their career ahead of whistle blowing a good story. Because they know that this story remains in their back pocket, they can bargain with it for other stories and eventually drop the story when the person in power has outlived their usefulness in terms of their career.

In other words journalists are also abusing their positions of trust and power and are very much part of the problem rather than the solution of holding power to account.

RedToothBrush · 30/10/2022 07:35

Another story running this morning is also interesting :

Beth Rigby at bethrigby
Braverman accused of failing to act on legal advice that govt was illegally detaining 1000’s of asylum seekers. ⁦The Times⁩ has five sources who claim Home Sec was told legal breach needed to be resolved urgently. That speaks to big tensions in HO.

Braverman won't last much past Christmas if she makes it that far imho.

notimagain · 30/10/2022 07:45

With regard to LT ex-PM I'm sensing a bit of a rush to judgement....

If the story was kept under wraps only for domestic political purposes/Tory party purposes then I'm right behind the idea of heads rolling PDQ.

OTOH if it was kept under wraps because that suited the security services and that's what they wanted (and there are all sorts of credible reasons why that might have been the case) then maybe there's a need to exercise some caution.

As a general point I do think in general we need to stop expecting everything that HMG/HM Forces get involved in to be broadcast on the likes of Twitter within minutes of it happening, especially in the current climate and especially anything involving Russia.

Zonder · 30/10/2022 07:49

Maybe it was kept under wraps because it makes her look spectacularly incompetent to have used her personal phone for so much government business and they needed to wait for the right time to go down this hole.