Liz Truss has resigned. Part 4: The Desolation of Boris

[sunnydaytoday0]

Continuation from last thread, for those of us following all the action on Monday.

And yes I'm a LOTR fan, so tried to continue the theme in the thread title 😉

Can you at least read each other’s posts… saves time

See Perking for answer

marsha Might help if you quoted what you re responding too instead of random outbursts.

Look for the post with caps if you want outbursts

oh and neither of us were quoting just answering which is allowed…

I re read Peking's posts and no where does she say Sunak = SM.

You are the only one saying that.

Here you go… Sunak plus SM..

Unlikely I’d say.

I didn't read that into Pekings post at all - lets move on?

As i said earlier, the only way out for the UK, is to have frictionless trade with the EU, now it maybe politically difficult but it will happen.

Sunak has led the way on u-turns and fair enough, thats not a criticism, nor does it show a lack of integrity, its intelligent - Make a mistake, realise and rectify - as he has done on Fracking, appointment charges and the 1p cut in income tax he announced as Chancellor.

I agree re changing direction. Sunak has been good at this and imo looks at evidence and is decisive.

re taxes and Brexit it’s something that came up in the Hands interview, he talks about low taxes and Brexit. We can’t have it now due to inflation - but is it ruled out when inflation is lowered - when the war ends? If the war carries on with this inflation long term maybe there will be a rethink. I’m all for it if so.

Starmer has stated his Brexit position early. Why do you think that is?

In a roundabout way Starmer could be more fixed on this issue than Sunak. If Starmer hadn’t stated his position without the actual need to at this point I’d be more inclined to think he could be weighing it up still. But he has been definitive.

re taxes and Brexit it’s something that came up in the Hands interview, he talks about low taxes and Brexit. We can’t have it now due to inflation - but is it ruled out when inflation is lowered - when the war ends? If the war carries on with this inflation long term maybe there will be a rethink. I’m all for it if so

This war could go on for many years, then there is whoever replaces Putin - will the West drop sanctions?
We then have to fund rebuilding (assuming Ukraine wins) which is by no means certain atm.
We also have huge gaps in health and education, i just don't see how taxes are coming down and tbh historically, they never really have, just get shifted about i.e lower income taxes, far higher property taxes.
Guy Hands didn't support low taxes at all, let alone Brexit.

I think to lower inflation we need to remove reliance on fossil fuels and that means hydrogen, Germany leading the way in Europe, with Hydrogen trains, why isn't the UK leading the way? its depressing, this is an open goal.

Starmer has stated his Brexit position early. Why do you think that is?

To head off the accusation Labour is trying to over turn the referendum, disappointing Sunak threw this at Starmer at PMQ's but that seems to be the nature of PMQ's from both sides.

It wasn’t a point about what Hands supported but the fact that is how Brexit is meant to work. I don’t mind if it is changed that’s not an issue. I didn’t vote for it in the first place so not emotionally attached to it, I think many are though so it’s a tricky topic.

Also Labour have stated this:

‘So let me be very clear.

Under Labour, Britain will not go back into the EU.

We will not be joining the single market or the customs union.

Now, I know some people don’t want to hear that, but it is my job to be frank and to be honest – and you will always get that with me.’

How can he row back from that frank and honest statement.

I agree with Marsha, Starmer has been so decisive on the issue of SM, he is usually much more circumspect.

Does it create a scenario where lib dems can campaign on rejoining SM (appeals to blue wall) and Labour on this vague notion of keeping Brexit but making it better ( appeals to red wall) . A coalition then captures votes from both sides? I generally have to strategically vote lib dem in my area and I think lib dem SM policy will be popular around here.

Neither party is going to give lower taxes.

The question is... what do you get for your money?

The party who answers that best is the winning party.

Well Starmer can ensure legislation reflects EU legislation thus limiting impact of duel regimes on businesses.
Starmer isn't as hemmed in to the sovereignty argument as closely as Sunak and his all important right wing are. Starmer doesn't have a free hand but neither does Sunak even if he ditches Braverman.

Yes Dweebie LibDem policy is a huge draw in my blue wall area too. Makes my vote easy!

Also the Labour Party do not have to commit to the SM. There are other measures to negotiate with the EU and to be done in the UK which could improve the economy.

The Conservatives will not do that because of their ideological beliefs. Indeed, they may try and make it far worse because of that ideology. What you have to know, is that there is nothing behind these slogans. The slogans are the whole policy, end of.

Great so we’re agreed Starmer will not do SM or CU pre or post GE.

It wasn’t logical to me as he was definitive so I’m glad there is consensus.

I disagree re taxes long term though but we’ll see.

I think it's a simpler question- if you are pro European, and want closer relations, then you cannot vote Conservative.

But if you did want a closer or more aligned relationship, the choices are Labour or Lib Dem.

Simple really. You do not have to worry about SM or CU issues. We can work outside that. It's about a willingness to do so.

The Conservatives are not willing to do so.

Well I just read the make Brexit work speech… not much in it I’ll await policies to decide

He is a politician, of course he can and (imho) Starmer will row back from that - because he has too, there is no other way of starting to fix our economic woes.

Same as i said earlier about u-turns.

Politicians have changed their minds about things since the year dot & mostly got away with it, tuition fees is the one that proves the rule.

Of course nothing is set in stone, anything can happen in the next 2 years and probably will.

Ukraine/Putin and China are the two biggest problems we face & are completely unpredictable.

That is admitting that Brexit does not work! It doesn't!

Lots of red tape, pointless expense to business, lessened influence in Europe and more immigration. Any pragmatic Conservative would've said stay. What is left is the hard core (and that does include Sunak) who are sticking with their ideology and their fantasies about Great Britain.

Sunak turned down a job in Cameron's government because of his commitment to Brexit. He is a deregulation supporter that will take us further away from Europe.

Yes so did i :(

Cake n eat it rubbish.

We don't have enough people in the UK to fill the vacancies we have in health and social care, 260k vacancies vs 250k long term unemployed & few would even begin to be suitable, let alone everywhere else.

Bespoke Veterinary Agreement? that involves abiding by EU regs and would scupper FTA with countries that don't - CBI earlier called for such an agreement whilst also wanting the UK to be able to make its own FTA - its quite frankly unbelievable (so called) intelligent people have zero understanding of the EU and the SM.

But of course Starmer knows this.

I really am interested in why everyone is so sure Starmer will switch

I think it was one person thought he might.

Of course, it would be the sensible thing to do to turn the economy around. But that doesn’t mean he (or anyone else) will do it.

I think it was one person thought he might.

Yes one thinks definitely, maybe two not scrolling back. But I have acknowledged consensus isn’t there in later post.

Cake n eat it rubbish.

Agree with this though and that we are in unpredictable times. Although imo Starmer sets a huge amount by steady and honest profile so changing from a frank and honest definitive statement… we’ll see

Great so we’re agreed Starmer will not do SM or CU pre or post GE.

No. Many of us think it’s unlikely. No one is agreed on anything.

SM and CU are very different things with different implications for the economy and different ways to approach/adapt our involvement with them. Nothing is impossible and the EU, for all its faults, is pragmatic and can be flexible. Our problem is that so far, we have shown that we can’t or won’t.

God you people are picky 😂

Can you quote each other - I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one posting as fascinating as I’m sure I am..

I believe what i do because of Starmers absolute belief, over many years in the EU, he fought for a 2nd vote and ultimately, its the only thing that will get us some sort of growth/out of the forth coming recession.

In RL very view hardcore on either side change.

Starmer's speech was full of contradictions and he knows it, they all do, we had Steve Baker MP (chair of ERG?) apologising to the EU, if that isn't a u-turn of mammoth proportions, don't know what it is.

Anyway, Sunak has a job and a half to do, some very painful choices ahead (and hopefully some tax rises on the super rich) which is why i'm glad there isn't a GE anytime soon.