Liz Truss has resigned. Part 4: The Desolation of Boris

[sunnydaytoday0]

Continuation from last thread, for those of us following all the action on Monday.

And yes I'm a LOTR fan, so tried to continue the theme in the thread title 😉

Shit show = Brexit in case that wasn’t clear.

That’s a huge u turn and not fitting with Starmer - he would be more likely to respect the electorate, policy promises and manifestos. I don’t agree with your certainty - it’s strange to be so certain tbh and a lot is riding on it

Anymore than your certainty he will not?

Both Tories and Labour have u-turned repeatedly but my belief comes from the simple fact that without the UK joining the SM (or a very close version of it) is the reality of Labours promises on growth, can't be achieved otherwise - i believe you also listened to Guy Hans and the future of the UK if we do not? economic doom

We are a huge market for the EU and vice versa, thats why, with a change of Govt and tone, we could re join.

But the problem at the moment is a very right wing press, who would slaughter any party if they publicly stated they wanted a closer relationship with the EU, much less the SM.

Lets see how the DM and Express deal with Sunak/Macron talks.

Yes indeed, walking.

Also the post you quoted from, plus some others, are exactly a manifestation of the phenomenon I talked about earlier.

The Tories have reversed direction more often than a shuttle bus in recent years – with the last few weeks on speed. They have repeatedly given top jobs (inc PM) to people already famous for lying and dishonesty. Dishonesty in the big stuff, not whether they ate their greens.

Yet some posters' messaging is: "OH.MY.GOD. Starmer might change course on something in 2 years' time. IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD. HE CAN'T BE TRUSTED."

Yeah. If integrity matters to you, if consistency matters to you, what are you doing supporting the current bunch? We're not even talking about change in response to better information or external conditions – but hourly flipflopping by the Tories.

The hypocrisy is on full display.

The current Tory leadership doesn't value integrity, honesty or consistency – and certainly doesn't display it. Yet here's the attempt to project the public's frustration at this behaviour onto the other guy.

I have said I wouldn’t draw definitively on much. I’m surprised people are so convinced Starmer has no integrity wen it comes to statements he’s already made though.

If he thinks there are votes in it run with it now. What is he so afraid of..

When..

Why are you so keen to pull Starmer upon integrity but don't seem to have any such qualms with Sunak?

How many u-turns has he done this week?

Why are you so sure Starmer has zero integrity and will do it? Sunak polls well on personal attributes ‘Britons tend to see Rishi Sunak as hardworking, decisive and competent’ so I don’t have to say much others already think what they do.

Lets face it Brexit is a huge issue in which voters are emotionally invested. It’s been 6 years and still it is an emotively contested topic. If you tell people no to SM and CU but try to switch after a GE people are going to notice, and care.

If you and he are so sure no one will mind, or actively want to be in the SM - it’s easy put it to the electorate at the GE. Why not?

Here we go again.

The poster is well aware that the recent Tory leadership has shown no integrity whatsoever, in any way. Self-interest and deceit have been their watchwords.

Sunak even made it his USP in his leadership bid. He wants to be seen as the new broom who does behave with integrity – indeed I had hopes of him. (Though he's undermined himself on this with the re-appointment of Braverman.)

Hence the desperate attempt to label everything Starmer does, or may ever do, as somehow a demonstration of lacking integrity.

I would genuinely like to see Sunak pull the Tory party up from the cesspit of deceitful populism, head-banger ideology and handing out major contracts to mates.

It would give the Tories a better chance of winning the next election, which I don't particularly want given their recent record, but it would be good for the country. So I want him to do it anyway.

If he can.

You are in cuckoo land if you are getting the U.K. on Starmer flipping on his current statement.

Spin it how you want in your head but at least try to be honest. Will Labour work with Brexit or not.. think about taxes etc

If you can step outside blind partisan loyalty for a moment and answer this - Why isn’t he running on it for the GE?

Again, nice try. But I'm not a Labour partisan.

I'm a floating voter who thinks the recent Tory party has been seeking out new depths to plumb, and is damaging our country and particularly our democracy in the process.

That's the bit I really care about.

I can see the next election messaging now:
"We've had enough of lack of integrity. So vote Tory."

With a pic of Starmer tying his shoelace wrong or something.

Except it'll turn out he wasn't even tying his shoelace, the media just said that.

So no answer? I really am interested in why everyone is so sure Starmer will switch but no clue why he’s not running on it at GE.. ok

As I said I would prefer a vote at the GE with the SM as an option.. let’s hear what the future is with both and decide. It’s so crucial I want to hear it and vote on it.

Labour and Brexit is doom spiral territory so that concerns me a lot. There’s no point in wasting five years with them locked together. It will take a vote though

I'm interested in what I posted on yesterday, Bradyo, viz the style of messaging that's been used so effectively by the Tories in current politics (and indeed by the rightwing in the US – I'm sure there are other examples, these are just two I know).

I'm not interested in whatever today's McGuffin is. I haven't even thought about it. No point until closer to an election, because everything will have changed so dramatically by then.

But you sound like you've got something you'd like to see the UK government do , like join the Single Market, so how about you ask YOUR MAN to do it?

The one who is actually, you know, THE CURRENT PRIME MINISTER?

Lol at this. Honestly try to step back and think in concepts and not ridiculous lines like your man. So low rent at this point. You might not be thinking of the GE but Starmer has already ruled out any big changes re Brexit.

I’m not as concerned about Sunak pursuing Brexit because it fits with the tax system he’ll aim for and he’s not going to change his vision. It’s not Starmer’s though is it?

I am more concerned about Labour and Brexit because it doesn’t fit together. Five years is a long time to be locked into that. The only way out would be to hold another referendum. But why wait to do that if that’s the aim? Just run the GE on it.

I’m not even committed to which I’d vote for that’s the point, I want the options because U.K. could choose what’s best and that is crucial. Why would anyone who didn’t want Brexit not want the choice anyway?

Anyway people seem to have lost the ability to think and answer questions without shouting, which is a pity.

So campaign for Sunak to call a general election?

And campaign for him to offer you a choice on the Single Market as part of his manifesto?

Sunak could even hold a referendum on it without putting the country through a general election or risking losing his power.

If you want to see a vote on the Single Market, ask the Sunak (or whoever's Prime Minister by this evening) to do it.

No thanks to GE now

So Sunak does SM but Starmer still commits to not do it.

Starmer in full Brexit mode but not Sunak. Strange turnaround but there you go…

(I know you won't, obviously. Because none of this is about whichever McGuffin is being toyed with today. It's about a particular technique of creating a mess, bundling it up and dumping on the other guy. Which is what I was talking about yesterday.)

I'd agree with that, although probably go further and suggest its the biggest part of the problem.

One big echo chamber.

to go back to the OP's analogy one ring to rule them all

A sort of less amusing version of Horace de Vere Cole's prank of dressing as a workman and digging up Piccadilly.

Some versions of the story have him getting a second pass by calling the police on the real workmen who came along to repair his damage – "They're at it again - arrest them!"

Where has that been said? Is Sunak now going to re-join the SM?

Two years out from a GE is a long time, statements and policies will change and your idea that Brexit can work with lower taxes has zero basis in reality.
i'd have thought the events of the last month would have shown you that?

The western world has to pay for Ukraine and CV, the UK this plus Brexit & countries with an older demographic (the UK) will have to pay for all of this too.

I think we will slowly see the introduction of wealth taxes, there is no where else to get the additional monies.

Brexit has been an unmitigated disaster, whilst reversal is unlikely, the issues we all face mean that the UK will have to work within the structures of the EU e.g SM, this also solves the NI issue, which is huge.

Ok so now Starmer is running full Brexit and Sunak is going for SM

I’d say it’s preferable for a politician to align vision with beliefs to get best outcome.. but no people can’t deal with it and get all upset and shout stuff