Liz Truss has resigned. Part 4: The Desolation of Boris

[sunnydaytoday0]

Continuation from last thread, for those of us following all the action on Monday.

And yes I'm a LOTR fan, so tried to continue the theme in the thread title 😉

I didn’t vote “for Corbyn” in 2019, but I voted Labour for the first time ever. Disappointed in and sometimes disgusted by all parties, but not wishing to not vote or spoil my ballot, I decided to vote for the party with the best single policy that I thought would benefit the country. The policy I liked was the subsidised fast broadband rollout, which I felt would benefit small business, particularly rural business, be useful for education and make working from home with its associated environmental benefits and advantages for women with families, easier.
People have many reasons for voting the way they do. Unfortunately the lazy trope, pushed by the media and parties themselves (so to some extent it becomes self-fulfilling) of the electorate voting for Leader X or Leader Y, along with FPTP, plays a big part in limiting political awareness and discussion in this country.

Labour’s green energy is interesting as a fair while back there was talk about learning from Aus Labor’s success. They ran on green issues to a large extent.

It gets more interesting because politically climate change was and is a more immediate issue in the mind of people - eg recent wildfires and floods, and the sheer land mass of Aus is very different to U.K.

I’d like to see the detail, what is being built and where and what’s the process for community consent.

I don’t mind that Starmer does a bit of a best of - quoting Blair and looking to Aus but does it match this time, the issues and reality of the U.K.

Imo Brexit and Labour don’t mix - I’d explore a long term vision around the SM, but it would take heartfelt vision to go back to that issue.

I think the green energy policy might be my reason to vote Labour this time. But TBF I’m hearing a lot of sense from them generally.
(This does not make me a lefty, a Starmer lover, or a Conservative hater - though it’s true I’ve never voted Conservative, preferring the LibDems - or any of the other things I might be accused of for expressing such an intention, just a voter trying to make the best choice under the circumstances)

Of course as is your right. Imo politics would be more balanced if more if other voters posted, not a comment on how individual posters want to vote.

Short term I think Labour would be an issue - over the winter due to inflationary pressure. But that’s ok as no GE luckily.

Long term Brexit goes with lower taxes (not now as Sunak rightly pointed out inflation needs to be dealt with as a priority - and fiscal management) but a combination of Labour approach and Brexit imo will be the doom spiral Hands talked about the other day.

Either / or. U.K. does Brexit and lower taxes or rejoins SM to avoid issues

Sunak cannot deal with inflation because its all imported, energy mainly driven by a war we have no say in its duration or ferocity.

Brexit actually means higher taxes, because it leads to lower $, more expensive imports (oil, commodities)

& Cutting ourselves off from our largest export/import market, a skilled workforce & able to move to/fro the UK.

Sunak is a life long Brexitier, he has now trying to get a deal with France on immigrants, i hope Macron tells him a few realities on what leaving the EU means - he will never join SM.

Lower taxes in the themselves do not lead to growth, companies need many things in order to thrive, not least a young, educated & flexible workforce.

btw @MarshaBradyo what does UK does Brexit mean exactly?

It’s not meant to be a difficult phrase - either we continue on this Brexit path or reverse in some way eg join the SM

If I had a choice I’d get Labour to run on joining the SM, as their politics doesn’t fit with Brexit long term. But Starmer has already ruled it out.

Yes, that's the most encouraging I've seen so far.

IMO the best thing Starmer could do that would still be within his political space and image, would be to go huge on this into the next election. It's probably the only issue where there is gathering public appetite for truly revolutionary change. If it can be done in a centrist way rather than conceding the argument to the left, so much the better for him. And it has a fundamental sense of positivity and forward thinking (similar to 1997) that contrasts with all the dour problem-fixing and disaster management that the next government is going to have to sign up to.

But what is this Brexit path? who knows? to me it just seems to isolationist (from Europe) in aim - it seems a difficult phrase for all.

Starmer will u-turn on SM, should they win the next GE.

However, the Tories could pull a blinder on Lab, say they want SM and then watch Starmer squirm, as they have done on the 1p cut to income, then reversed, makes them look weak.

I would prefer EFTA as their version on FOM means it can be limited, though i think the days of mass migration from EU is over now.

I agree that there seems to be this weird Teflon greasy quality about the current Tory government. A lot of people in England really, really want to believe in them even though they know they're hopeless. I don't remember this attitude back in the 90s when John Major's government became a joke.

I wonder whether that's because the credibility of this bunch of Tories is all tied up with the credibility of Brexit? That issue attracted an unusual degree of emotional investment from a lot of people, there's still a lot of cognitive dissonance and not many of them a ready to admit they were conned.

Starmer will u-turn on SM, should they win the next GE.

That’s a huge u turn and not fitting with Starmer - he would be more likely to respect the electorate, policy promises and manifestos. I don’t agree with your certainty - it’s strange to be so certain tbh and a lot is riding on it.

I like the idea of green policy in pp, it’s positive etc which is a nice change for this Labour and not bogged down in the mechanics. But again need detail and how they’d get community consent and on what. But it will not solve the issues we face.

Over the last few days listening to Hands and other commentators the issue of what Brexit should look like includes lower taxes, including corporate. Labour won’t do this and we’ll end in a doom spiral he fears.

Sunak is committed to Brexit, he can sell us his vision. Starmer should be honest and upfront and not u turn after an election - and sell us his vision now if he has one. Not after we vote.

Pp mentioned being conned (I don’t agree fully with this as it implies superiority for those who were not). Stating an absolute on a big issue and U turn after is conning people though. And yes people are emotionally invested so trying to get votes because you fear a reaction beforehand then flipping won’t help.

Sell the two different approaches in an election and we can decide.

a week is a long time for this thread, never mind politics. Going back a couple of days @LexMitior commented (across two posts)

I sometimes contrast when I started watching politics and now. The quality of people who enter politics is at all time low. Awful.

This is where I disagree a bit. Some politicians are definitely motivated by public service. Some, mentioning no names, are definitely in for the power and money they can obtain. I see more of the latter these days than I did 30 years ago.

which I found myself nodding in agreement on.

On reflection I would suggest a lot has changed comparing 1992 with 2022 - no social media, no viral videos, no hastily deleted tweets, no mass 24 hr rolling news cycle and all the associated spin-offs. So a fundamentally different environment; and are our current batch just a product of their environment or are they fundamentally different personality; integrity; experience wise to the1992 cohort?

An open question, I don't have an answer. Banking on Lex here. Some from 1992 are presumably still there - although Peter Bottomley is the only one I could easily name.

MP demographics have changed a lot over the past 30 years - the HoC library has some interesting research briefing summaries on that.

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7483/

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/

However in terms of the quality have the pathways in and perhaps pre-MP experience (eg having some sort of real-world experience) markedly changed?

How is the awfulness explained?

All this talk of EFTA or SM is not going to happen. The degree to which we have, as a nation, totally ruined our reputation diplomatically is just not understood in the country at large. We have just got decades of building it back ahead of us. Decades.

If that in any way pisses you off, then you can thank the Conservatives and their voters.

All this talk of EFTA or SM is not going to happen.’

Agree. So vote based on that not a vague dream that Starmer will u turn after an election.

Does Labour and Brexit equal doom spiral.. Probably - even with a bit of green on top.

I can really only speak about the Conservatives because I know them better.

But the ugly truth is that moderation in the Conservatives has just been declining for a long time. Those people who did not engage in headline grabbing, sound bites, they were marginalised. And these were good people, high quality people. They were not very diverse however. And the pressure was on really to show that they could not be the nasty party.

The Conservatives always had an extreme wing, but it has just grown over the years so it is more ideological than practical. Truss did not come from nowhere. A lot of them have similar thoughts.

So it is easier than it has ever been to join and not display independent thought, and quality is a distant second if at all.

@MarshaBradyo

Respecting the referendum result . . . exploiting the potential of Brexit . . . ruling out membership of the single market . . .

These are Starmer's principles. And if you don't like them, he has others 😁

Seriously, you're asking for something that is completely foreign to his mentality and politics. We know what his native territory is: Post-Blair internationalist liberalism, firmly Remain. The only reason the conversation is any more complicated than that is because a bunch of focus groups told him he would have to embrace Brexit for PR purposes, to avoid confronting Leave voters in the red wall with the reality that you've already said we need to avoid confronting them with. 🙂

Sunak already had a dig at this at last week's PMQs. Expect more of the same.

And when I say they weren't diverse, they had usually made their own money before entering politics. The rise of a pure political class from university with no other background other than politics or political journalism encourages really low quality people are on message. Much easier than making something of yourself and then entering public service.

Yes I heard that at PMQs - it’s a real weak point.

And your post made me laugh totally agree 😬 well put!

@boys3

Isn't part of the problem just the change in platforms of public debate? Communication via the internet and social media is inherently faster, more immediate, and less reflective than via print media or even television. We live in a soundbite age where everything is about the speed and emotiveness of owning the narrative, rather than depth of analysis or genuine reasoned interaction of ideas. Our poor quality of politicians (Johnson being a prime example) are just the ones who have learnt to thrive in that atmosphere.

I think the rise of Johnson also reflects on the UK. He did literally nothing other than offer simple thinking and simple slogans in the most complicated matter this country had to undertake since 1945.

The fact he did so well, and people enjoyed his regressive conduct with Macron and the EU is a British problem. We literally seemed to be happy with that even when it was clear that the UK needed friends internationally.

We still need them btw and it is going to be very hard going. The work of decades, to be taken seriously when once it was a given.

I’d say it’s more of a weak point for Sunak that, for all his intelligence, he actually thought this shit show would work. It will become increasingly clear over the next 2 years how deluded that was. In addition to the fact that he signed up for a team with disgraceful anti-immigrant rhetoric. He’s no better than Braverman in that regard.

What worries me about Sunak is that he doesn't understand how important an issue climate change is. It's at least as important as the economy, even if he doesn't think there are votes in it. But I want to vote for my children's and grandchildren's futures as much as my own.

It's not just the speed of social media, it's the anonymity and direct access.

The adage "A lie can be half-way round the world before the truth has got its boots on," pre-dates social media, but is even more apt now.

Combining that with microtargeting means you can push a lie out into specific bubbles of people without encountering any contradiction, because it's no longer the case that everyone hears the same news.

Cambridge Analytica got caught on camera describing the effectiveness of "pushing a message out anonymously into the bloodstream of the internet". The guy said explicitly that this was much more effective than stating messages openly, where the public could see who was behind the message and thus assess their agenda.

Where is this fear coming from?

The Guardian, hardly a great ally, still outlines why he has good approach with quotes from green organisations

amp.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/24/will-rishi-sunak-rebuild-green-agenda-torn-up-liz-truss

‘Shaun Spiers, the executive director of the environmental thinktank Green Alliance, said: “Sunak said he wanted to stick to the 2019 manifesto, which was pretty good on this stuff, and Liz Truss wanted to junk it.”‘

‘He thinks Sunak has listened to his more eco-minded colleagues: “In the hustings in the summer, when there were lots of candidates, we had a conservative environment network hustings for each of them and they all made their environmental pitches. He was straightforward in saying he’s a believer in net zero Britain, he had a specific proposition for getting homes insulated more quickly and is pretty strong on nature.’