Do you think our 21st century society can actually afford the full welfare state ideal?

[TheOtherBoleynGirls]

First things first, I want us to have a full welfare state. I think being able to provide everybody in a country with equal education, equal healthcare, and an equal safety net in times of trouble and illness is the absolute ideal.

But looking at the state our economy is in, do you think that dream is still achievable, with the right taxes and financial management, or do you think it might be a post-war ideal that is economically unviable for a country in the long run?

YABU - we can afford it if everything is managed correctly

YANBU - it’s a great but inevitably impractical idea

But you and I cannot afford to fund everyone's catastrophic experiences. Our own and those of our family, because we have to if we hope to emerge on the other side, but my generosity does not extend to universal support for people who have made daft choices.

Looking at the voting on this thread, a sizeable part of MN is living in cloud cuckoo land!

Haven't had time to RTFT, but like all of you I've been puzzling over this stuff, what with our revolving door of prime ministers lately. One thing I did conclude is that dear old Rishi Sunak has a point about getting inflation under control as fast as possible. In a way, inflation takes money from earners' pockets just as taxes do, but inflation is way more regressive -- the more of your income you have to spend, instead of saving it, the more inflation will hit you. Plus, it raises the cost of government debt so there's less money to spent on social care, the NHS, and everything else.

Beyond that I haven't managed to reach any conclusions yet!😅except that I'm so glad it's not my job to sort this out

But everything is relative. So everything goes up or down and poor people remain poor, the squeezed middle remain squeezed and the rich remain rich!

Many European countries are taxed more highly than UK yet we are the fourth largest provider of state benefits.

The trouble with our economy is that we are no longer a productive nation. We used to make our own cars, steel, ships, white goods, bikes radios stereos, kettles etc... we were an exporting nation. So we produced all these things, our employees made these things, the employees spent their wages in this country. Profits were made in this country and were, in turn, further invested in this country in new factories, shops, etc...

This isn't what we do now. We import most things. They are made abroad, wages for staff are earned abroad, they are spent abroad and little investment comes to UK because our economy is volatile.

We are a service nation now. We assemble cars for other countries as well as other products. The money goes abroad. Even Dyson has moved abroad.
We no longer have wealth capital . Those who have wealth invest it off shore.

We can't afford much now. Leaving the EU has removed much of our trading markets and barely any have been created.

Our NHS and elderly social care is far too costly. We now rely on hedge funds and property portfolios.

We can't afford a full welfare state. We make little, produce little, export little, receive little foreign investments but we want far too much in return.

The Cradle to Grave State Care Model needs updating - mostly because of the massively increased lifespans; which I suggest might be due to NHS interventions that are provided as routine and expected, and often demanded, to prolong life in elderly years. And the State is also expected to provide Elderly Social Care too.

And the myriad of 'health conditions' that at least half of the MN population seem to report as having, it all adds up. Then there's paying the mahoosive Public Sector Wages Bill - including all the T&Cs such as Sick/Mat Leave, Training (including Uni Degrees) and the Pensions, it all adds up to quite an hefty amount to be paid for out of the Public Purse.

I consider myself a productive member of Society - have been working for 40+ years but in mostly low-paid jobs - but have also cared for the past 20+ years for my disabled ds (including preparing him for independence for when I'm gone). But still I'll be a negative economic contributor to the Welfare State, just like many of us actually are

A Societal Shift is needed - away from mere economics as the solution - and (back) towards inter-generational and neighbours caring for each other. Counting how much money you have is rather a dull thing to do and so is prioritizing the pursuit and amassing of 'money'.

Look where that has got us to.

And the State is also expected to provide Elderly Social Care too.

Not if you own a house or have savings of more than £23k.

Nobody in the public sector gets their degree funded and why shouldn’t their terms and conditions be the same as everyone else’s? It seems you want to unwind all the progress we’ve made in the last 50 years.

At which point they all leave and go somewhere else like the did in the 60s and 70s but worse. We called it the "Brain Drain"

I am not as fit as I should be but I am not in bad shape. I have a job which is mainly office based. I am not yet 50. Aspects of my job get me out of the office and when they do I find the physical demands much harder than I used to. My job is not in any way manual labour.

Coming at it from a different angle. If I was managing a construction site and needed 10 tons of bricks moved by hand I would really prefer to have 20 something workers, not 40-something and definitely not 60 something.

The problem is not people retiring at 60, the problem is lots a lots of rich unproductive people not working who are much younger.

@flowerycurtain I also think the retirement age should be abolished. If you're fit enough to work you should work. Albeit part time/different role/seasonal work.

Do you think this should apply to everyone then? Who gets to decide what 'fit to work' means? Do you think a nurse who had worked since 21 should still be working on in a desk role or non clinical role till they drop then? Should work till they are exhausted and never be allowed to retire? Should esa and other such benefits be stopped and recipients be told well find something you can do?
Not a chance will many workers accept that. What work from the age of 21 (not including all the part time jobs probably had while at school/uni/college) then get told no you don't get to retire, then told 'you have a work pension, you're not entitled to claim a state pension then oh no state pension you aren't entitled to access the NHS without being charged' sod that!!

No the problem is not rich unproductive people not working Who are much younger. The issue is they’re not paying tax.

To be honest I have no problem with somebody who invests well in property, stock shares, businesses whatever retire and why shouldn’t they good on them however when I was paying PAYE I was paying as much in tax as I was in national insurance so even if these people need to still put their fair share into the pot if they want to take out and if they don’t that’s fine, opt out. No NHS for you.

The issue is they’re not paying tax.

Where do people get this misinformation from? Anyone with an income over £12,750 pays tax. That means anyone with an income of more than £3k over and above their state pension is a taxpayer.

Okay I’ll be specific because I thought I’d spelt out fairly clearly in that post where I pointed out I was paying as much in national insurance as I am in tax, they need to pay the national insurance element. It’s basically tax, anybody earning over £100,000 PAYE in the UK is paying 33% in tax on their earnt income anybody who is earning unearnt income is paying absolutely nowhere near that.

If you make non working pensioners pay NI then you have to remove its link with pensions. The contract is quite explicit that you have to make NI contributions for a minimum of 35 years to qualify for a full state pension. I paid for 44 years. Only 6% of a £100k earned income is NI contributions, why not let people like you opt out? No state pension for you.

I have budgeted for no state pension and private health care in my dotage.

I’ve been paying into private pensions for my children since the day they were born my 22-year-old need never put in a penny and will retire on inflation adjusted £40 grand a year at 60.

it really is the best gift you can give your kids compounded interest, outperforms the property market with less stress.

we are no longer a productive nation. We used to make our own cars, steel, ships, white goods, bikes radios stereos, kettles etc... we were an exporting nation.

We invented most of the above, but as we did and our prosperity grew, our wage expectations escalated too, so we became a high wage economy. Other countries took over the cheaper low-end manufacturing and we have now a very intellectually-driven economy where fewer clever people make bundles of money selling their ideas to the world, and the rest of us provide services to each other.

As a pensioner, I'm paying tax. A fair bit. And like everyone else, I'm paying other taxes such as VAT etc

The NI I paid from 16-66 apparently paid for my pension. I was told I could retire at 60 - but I had to wait an extra 6 years.

National Insurance was set up to provide for certain things, such as a retirement pension, so, if I have to pay it again, I'm not sure what I'd be paying in for.🤔

@Zebedee55 well at the bottom of my payslip I’m reliably informed that there’s a 1.25% uplift in an NIC’s funds for NHS and social care. So that’s what you’d be paying for it seems.

Most of us will be paying for our own social care and it will cost us considerably more than making us pay NI would. In fact, it’s such a bargain bring it on so our houses won’t have to be sold.

I see no reason why you shouldn’t be chipping in towards it given that it wasn’t included in the original calculations when you were promised to pension. Without wanting to sound like a sociopath and I really don’t mean this personally to anyone but statistically you’re really not meant to have lived this long as a generation

How old do you think I am?! 😂

I wouldn’t even dare to try and hazard a guess.

You just did you’re really not meant to have lived this long as a generation

blossom and I are roughly the same age. And I am just 66. Do you want to shoot me for overstaying my welcome this week or next week?

To be honest HiveBee, I think you have a lot of work to catch up with before you start taking the people who have worked 40 years to task.