Do you think our 21st century society can actually afford the full welfare state ideal?

[TheOtherBoleynGirls]

First things first, I want us to have a full welfare state. I think being able to provide everybody in a country with equal education, equal healthcare, and an equal safety net in times of trouble and illness is the absolute ideal.

But looking at the state our economy is in, do you think that dream is still achievable, with the right taxes and financial management, or do you think it might be a post-war ideal that is economically unviable for a country in the long run?

YABU - we can afford it if everything is managed correctly

YANBU - it’s a great but inevitably impractical idea

Unless, of course, he is living off his capital ...

I think social security in the West has finally run out of wriggle room to pay for the fallout of 80's laissez faire capitalism and its 90's cousin, neo liberal globalisation. Fingers crossed for a managed decline as surely only developing countries can actually accommodate new growth now? Via the old growth methods that is, if they continue to hold sway.

He won’t be a millionaire for long if he is.

So, let’s say everyone always has ‘equal of everything’. Then someone makes a real success of their life, and accrues more, would that have to go into the system to level everyone up? What would be the incentive of someone making so much effort? After all, if you genuinely did something outstanding ie: built a company that employed hundreds of people (tho would you be allowed to as you would benefit from that company or would that then have to be dismantled in the interests of fairness or made a co-operative maybe) or invented something that helped everyone (but then equally you couldn’t benefit from because it would obviously have to be done as a not for profit) would you genuinely be ok with that?

If so, maybe it’s time to own that you believe in communism.

@Blossomtoes not if it’s income he’s invested an ISA. Very handy tax saving tools

What at £20k a year?

@Blossomtoes sorry that should read ‘Not if it’s income from money he’s invested in an ISA’.

PEPs were pre ISA’s and were started late 80’s. I don’t know his age but let’s say his parents invested for him he could have 40 years of allowance there - £7,000 between 89 - 10 and then over 10,000 between 10 - 17 and £20k the last 5 years. That’s £317k before you start with compound interest. And a wife could have the same. It’s easy how it builds up. Our two children are 8 and 4 and have £50k and £20k respectively because we started investing when they were babies…

I am tired of the right talking Britain down. The Tories have no pride in Britain, they just want to run everything down.

Yes we can afford a functioning welfare state. We are a great country, full of hard working people who have been let down by the government for too long.

And as long as it's looked on as what it was supposed to be, a short term help for those in need and not as a way of life for many.

People really think a life on benefits is one of comfort and enjoyed by many ?

There are lots of knots that need untangling in our economy, but one of the biggest is the failure to invest enough in training our young people, especially young men. Most of that should be delivered by SMEs, but there really isn't any advantage to the SME to bother. It's more administration/cost for at least a couple of years before the apprentice is useful. Apprenticeship used to be paid for.

Apprenticeships are paid for, for the most part. The ESFA funds apprenticeships, training providers claim the funding from the ESFA directly. The cost to the employer is time - they have to allow the learner 6hr/week time off the job for apprenticeship learning, they have to be involved in planning and tracking progress with the training privider, and they have to give the apprentice a few days, maybe a week, off at the end to complete their assessment. What puts companies off apprenticeships is the hassle that comes with an employee who isn't ready to go from day one. I think this is part of a wider shift in the employment market - entry level jobs that pay £19k but want a degree and two years of experience. Employers want more and more from their employees, but they aren't prepared to pay for it and they aren't prepared to invest time/effort into training. No wonder the quiet quitting movement has taken off so much; why put anything more in than the bare minimum, when that is all employers are willing to do?

Medical developments means the NHS and the way we live is completely different to when it was set up.

Obesity cost the NHS 6 billion in 2021 its projected to be 9.7 billion by 2050, a million admissions linked to obesity last year.

Almost 4 million people have type 2 diabetes in the UK with 13 million at risk.

I always wonder about these so called 'lifestyle 'diseases and the actual financial cost to society. It seems to me that the most expensive thing is a very long retirement. So if something like smoking cuts that short, money is saved. I suppose the most expensive 'lifestyle 'diseases would be one that renders you unable to work, needs expensive medical care but allows a normal lifespan.

@Kendodd I think that's why obesity and diabetes is such a threat to the NHS.

Smoking was bad for you but at the peak, tobacco taxes made a massive dent in the cost of the NHS. And smokers, mostly, died young... except my great grandfather who smoked from age 8 to 89!

When the political ruling class stop waisting our taxes/money. Money they take from us by decree. Why do they waist - because it's not their money. Then when their up shit creek, they steal more of our money (sorry increase tax) oh and arbitrarily conjure money out of thin air - print money, to pay for their loses.

@NellyBarney UK productivity (I.e. the overakl amount of wealth that is created each year, divided by number of people living here) is very low compared to comparable nations, and as a result there is less money for public services. So even if the rich get taxed more, there is still less money per person compared to countries like Germany, France, US or Japan. So in order to get better services, we all need to make more money. Best way to achieve that is to make and sell expensive stuff (electric cars, software, planes) and attract lots of foreign investment. UK has already the highest taxes for business and investors among comparable nations, so to get people to build Tesla or Apple factories here, with limited government investment in I frasyructure, is a challenge.

I don't think that last part's true is it? I thought the UK had one of the lowest levels of corporation tax in Europe?

The bed blocking gets me.. surely it would be prudent to sort that out before anything else.

I'm a Boomer. Am expecting talk of a cull before much longer..

It started here........

I'm a Boomer. Am expecting talk of a cull before much longer..

It’s already begun. We’re the most reviled generation in history - based on nothing more than our date of birth.

Bed blocking is a problem, but patients need to be medically fit for discharge too. DMIL93, with dementia, fell out of bed four weeks ago breaking her hip and other bones. She's been cemented back together but won't eat and has chest and UTI infections, so not medically fit to be discharged back to the care home where her room has been moved to accommodate her increased needs. She is never going to climb back to being well.

Come on @Blossomtoes , we're the pioneers.

We were educated. We can argue the hind legs off dinosaurs!

The welfare state should provide a safety net for people who are unable to work through ill health, disability or temporary unemployment caused by e.g. redundancy. The fact that people can work yet still get (and need) UC means some employers are having their profits boosted by being able to pay less than a wage considered enough to survive. If you work you should be able to thrive not 'barely survive'

I qualified with a degree in a clinical area and took a fulltime job in the NHS. Despite overtime every single week I struggled to make ends meet for years when the kids were young.