Do you think our 21st century society can actually afford the full welfare state ideal?

[TheOtherBoleynGirls]

First things first, I want us to have a full welfare state. I think being able to provide everybody in a country with equal education, equal healthcare, and an equal safety net in times of trouble and illness is the absolute ideal.

But looking at the state our economy is in, do you think that dream is still achievable, with the right taxes and financial management, or do you think it might be a post-war ideal that is economically unviable for a country in the long run?

YABU - we can afford it if everything is managed correctly

YANBU - it’s a great but inevitably impractical idea

When I started work the basic rate was 33% it went up to 35% two years later. Top rate was 93%.

How long for & did wages increase in those years?

I’m one of the people who cost the NHS a lot. I’m in my mid 30s and take a biologic which costs somewhere between £6,000-10,000 a year. I’m severely immunosupressed so eligible for a flu jab, covid Jab etc.

I’m very grateful I can take this drug but I’m aware that someone is paying for it and there’s many like me. When the NHS was set up people like me weren’t on these long term expensive treatments in same volumes.

similarly, when I get ill and can’t access the GP I end up not being able to work due to illness, and that costs in sick pay/productivity. I’d support a European style healthcare system where there would be charges at point of use but I’d access it quickly.

We can afford a taxpayer-funded health service which only treats medical necessities. We cannot afford this bloated health service which runs gender intervention clinics, does breast amputations sex changes and therapy, and wastes huge amounts on expensive drugs because it is too complicated to update prescriptions. We also can’t afford the amount currently spent on physical problems caused by ‘user error’ like alcholism, smoking and sports. The last time I took a sick child to A&E there were four adults there, completely separately, seeking treatment for broken limbs from playing rugby. The oldest was in her late fifties and should never have been on a rugby pitch. Why should taxpayers fund treatment for injuries caused by someone else’s dangerous hobby? Why shouldn’t they have to buy medical insurance if they want to play sports where serious injuries are common?

Alcohol and smoking should have taxes on them high enough to pay for the damage they cause and the cost to NHS.

(Similarly the civil service should be massively cut - I’ve worked in it and the amount of staff time wasted on things that aren’t their actual job is huge, as is the number of lazy incompetents who get passed around, but never fired.)

We can and must afford free education in class sizes of less than 30 in clean warm buildings led by a qualified teacher. We cannot afford specialist SEN provision for everyone who needs it, sadly. There was a thread the other day about whether someone with a ECHP should receive $750,000 of taxpayer money to fund higher education to age 25. Many said they were legally entitled to that. I don’t think the taxpayer can afford to spend that much on individual cases, sadly.

In general we should stop reinventing the wheel, identify a country that has a great health and education system, and copy how they do it.

What’s that got to do with it? If you earned more, you still only saw 67% of it.

“I think we should tax capital much more and income from work less (I personally would have to pay a lot more this way). The relationship between labour and capital is completely broken. Example, a person can work full time, leaving themselves poor, just to pay the rent. The LL has to do very little actual work, but makes good money, because they own the building. I am the LL in this situation btw.”

This poster makes such a good point. I know a millionaire who claims child benefit, because he’s so rich he doesn’t need to work, and thus has zero income and is entitled to child benefit. His taxes are sod all. Meanwhile we have little capital and DH works 18hr days but we’re heavily taxed on his earnings. It isn’t right to focus on income tax it should be wealth tax and capital tax. In particular we should disincentivise foreign ownership of UK properties. I know German bankers who are buying up UK properties they don’t need because “The pound is so low at the moment it’s rude not too.” When the economy improves the profit made on those buildings will leave the country, and meanwhile, house prices are kept high because of investors buying up the stock. It’s ridiculous.

👏👏👏

Alcohol and smoking should have taxes on them high enough to pay for the damage they cause and the cost to NHS.

That‘s already the case for tobacco. Otherwise I agree with most of your post. I’d add ivf into the list of things the NHS shouldn’t fund.

What’s that got to do with it? If you earned more, you still only saw 67% of it.

Well I think salary growth is very relevant.

think we should tax capital much more and income from work less (I personally would have to pay a lot more this way). The relationship between labour and capital is completely broken

Agree, it's all out of kilter

Yes I wish they would stop this for overseas buyers like New Zealand has

Has the millionaire had to pay capital gains tax on his properties?

also, can council tax be per person, with parents paying for children obvs.

you mean a poll tax? It went well last time it was tried.

I think a fully-funded welfare state is completely affordable, BUT higher taxation and more state intervention / visibility is required, and those are very unpopular concepts in the UK which is temperamentally a very (small c) conservative country.

I know a millionaire who claims child benefit, because he’s so rich he doesn’t need to work, and thus has zero income

No you don’t. A millionaire has invested money and will pay tax on the income from it. The bollocks people come out with here sometimes.

no tbh
i think we have a real race to the bottom mentality

even on here you read threads about people who don’t want to work extra hours etc because it’ll affect their benefits
I read this morning a lady who was irked that she’d have to pay more for her student loan when promoted and benefits don’t cover it

there’s also people who are constantly in the GP needing XYZ and oftentimes it’s not necessary

I’m not blaming because it’s the system and that’s how it works but we really need to try to move into more independent ways of living

totally agre about a lack of social housing/social rents however

I dont think 'the rich' are rich that's why if you look at what I wrote in more depth without looking for a bun fight you will see I emphasized the words 'the rich' using quotation marks to imply I don't think it.

You get taxed 40% when you earn over £50,271, like I said...

I never said there weren't other taxes...

And yes I do wonder where it goes.

That seems alot too.

Yes my dh takes an injection for his asthma which is £1k a month and I also realize how lucky we are that it keeps him reasonably well and able to keep working, so I guess he does pay tax back but probably not enough to pay for it !

Our society has changed in the 75 years since the inception of the NHS and the welfare state. Investment, including adequate pay for carers and other who work in social care is required. Greater investment in providing places in the community for the elderly and chronically ill to live, or to support them to live well in their own homes, would ease the burden in hospital wards somewhat.

I don't disagree, but medical progress means the elderly population has exploded, and with it the need for more and more intensive geriatric care. Too much attention is paid to the needs of old and/or sick people. I'm 66 and watching the NHS do its best for DMIL93 with dementia, who just wants out frankly, seems like a mis-direction of resource.

Interesting thought. I think we should have it. And I'd be prepared to pay more taxes.

But the big caveat is I do think we need to work for it. I've met too many people who won't work over 16 hours due to benefits. (To be fair this was a few years ago). There are jobs galore in this country that we ought to respect more and be proud to do.

It is a misdirection of resource @XingMing. It’s the reason that a lot of us who have witnessed similar things are taking steps to avoid it. Get your living will sorted now and registered with your GP, be clear with your family what you want and make sure it doesn’t happen to you when the time comes.

To quantify my last comment I think that families should be the first port of call. I also think the retirement age should be abolished. If you're fit enough to work you should work. Albeit part time/different role/seasonal work.

And before anyone asks, we sold her home to pay for care. Not a single penny has been taken from the public purse.

Of course it has if the NHS is keeping her alive. It must be costing thousands.

These things are easy to say, in many cases, even the very elderly, when faced with it, cling desperately to life. It's the main instinct we come into the world with, do everything to stay alive.

This! Thank you for articulating this so clearly xx