Do you think our 21st century society can actually afford the full welfare state ideal?

[TheOtherBoleynGirls]

First things first, I want us to have a full welfare state. I think being able to provide everybody in a country with equal education, equal healthcare, and an equal safety net in times of trouble and illness is the absolute ideal.

But looking at the state our economy is in, do you think that dream is still achievable, with the right taxes and financial management, or do you think it might be a post-war ideal that is economically unviable for a country in the long run?

YABU - we can afford it if everything is managed correctly

YANBU - it’s a great but inevitably impractical idea

Of course we can afford it. We have plenty of wealth in this country - it is just concentrated among too few people.

The thing that may make it unaffordable is the state pension. Which is massively problematic because of the disparity between people who do manual labour, need to retire by 70ish and are unlikely to live to receive their pension for long vs those who have done less physical jobs but may live to receive far more than they ever put in if they receive it from the same age…

We could afford it, but only if some people give up things they don’t want to give up.

It's a good question.
I think we can afford it but I don't think there is enough appetite for it. I also think people are unaware of the benefits and consequences of removing it.

Hello Mary
"I think being able to provide everybody in a country with equal education, equal healthcare, and an equal safety net in times of trouble and illness is the absolute ideal."

everyone has a different idea of what this is though.

What kind of things do you mean? Slightly lower levels of care for everyone, or the super rich accepting huge taxes?

Mary? (I’m missing an obvious joke here, aren’t I?)

Economically, it would definitely be possible.

Persuading the population of the UK? Probably not.

People have to believe in working together for the betterment of everybody. They also have to trust the government. It doesn’t look likely in the near future.

OP - Mary. The Other Boleyn Girl.

YANBU. Equal and accessible healthcare is important but not in it's current form in the UK with an increased population, longevity and ever increasing long-term/chronic illness. Cancer rates are going up to.
Social care needs to be addressed massively as 13% of the UK pop is expected to be over 75 by 2043 (24% over 65) so that will affect income taxes, healthcare, housing.

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9239/#:~:text=The%20proportion%20of%20the%20population,from%202%25%20to%204%25.

Ha! Sorry, to much wine 😉

I hadn’t thought of this before, but is there a correlation between improved access to healthcare over the past few decades, and the rise is the pension bill? It seems obvious now it’s occurred to me.

What does equal healthcare, education and safety net mean? Equal to what?

Well we could apparently afford £70bn furlough, the £37bn failed track and trace system, £4bn worth of unusable PPE, £98bn on HS2, £849 million on eat out to help out, millions on the queen’s platinum jubilee, £11bn on paying too much interest on national debt, and of course we could save by not tanking the economy with a disaster mini budget that wasn’t even implemented.

The tories want us to think we can’t afford the NHS, benefits and public services but really what we can’t afford is to have them in power any longer.

I guess I mean equal for every member of society, so the same education possibilities or healthcare regardless of your income.

But I’m not an economist or social historian so I know I’m asking from a position of probably not knowing much.

Mervyn King was on breakfast news this morning saying that we absolutely can't afford it. He thinks austerity will be worse than after 2008. He said we want European-style welfare but low US-style taxes. He said everyone thinks we need to tax the rich more but there aren't enough of them to sort it out even if we taxed them to the hilt. No idea if he's right but it was depressing. He predicts lower standards and higher taxes for everyone.

Yes, people are living longer (retire at 65 and live to 104-that's a lot of years of pension) plus requiring more health and social care input.

@kikisparks 👏👏exactly. I wish I could remember even half the litany of disasters, so much to chose from.

I think there is a role for population education and contribution too, eg no you can’t have your nails clipped on the NHS, have creams for your dry heels or thrush etc. Pay for it yourself. (Obviously exceptions for the very elderly, no family etc.)

There was no such thing as track and trace. It was test and trace, which also had to pay for all of the millions of tests that were being done daily for months.

Yes it's possible but it needs tax reform so that individuals and companies pay tax in proportion to their earnings/turnover
Thee loop holes which enable them to get away with paying little/ no tax need to go.

We also need to look at social care so NHS beds are not blocked by people needing support post NHS care.

Those were 'short-term' expenses and which increased public debt to 2.1 trillion.

www.statista.com/statistics/282647/government-debt-uk/

We can afford the NHS just not in its current form with an ageing population with the rise of long-term/chronic disease.

Not with open borders, no.
That is, there exists a trade-off or conflict between immigration and the welfare state.
Progressive's Dilemma

It has never happened in history and never will. It’s not about affording it. It’s against human nature. People are competitive by nature and want to get ahead. They want to accumulate to keep raising standards for themselves and their children. And why wouldn’t you? It’s that sense of wanting better that drives people. If you take that way, you’re left an equal amount of misery for all.

Even the fairytale utopias of communism has failed to achieve equality. In fact they create the exact opposite. All those at the top just send their kids abroad for an education and healthcare, while lecturing the serfs about equality.

Equality of outcome should not be the goal. That’s just fantasy land nonsense. Raising average standards for all should be. That’s progress.

This.

This is all there is to it. Very simple, but there’s a huge overlap between those in power and those hoarding the resources, so the chances of getting them to share nicely and not be selfish are minimal, as things stand.

Oh dear. So you don’t understand the difference between turnover and profit.