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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Do you think our 21st century society can actually afford the full welfare state ideal?

249 replies

TheOtherBoleynGirls · 23/10/2022 20:16

First things first, I want us to have a full welfare state. I think being able to provide everybody in a country with equal education, equal healthcare, and an equal safety net in times of trouble and illness is the absolute ideal.

But looking at the state our economy is in, do you think that dream is still achievable, with the right taxes and financial management, or do you think it might be a post-war ideal that is economically unviable for a country in the long run?

YABU - we can afford it if everything is managed correctly

YANBU - it’s a great but inevitably impractical idea

OP posts:
Babyroobs · 23/10/2022 22:53

I work helping older people to claim benefits and to be honest I just can't see how we can afford to pay older people the benefits we do, especially with the predicted huge increase in pensioners. I help older people to claim benefits like Attendance allowance and unlike disability benefits for working age people, Attendance allowance seems to have a very low bar for being awarded. Given that with age all people will struggle with some of the things that AA is awarded for, I believe we will reach a point where the vast majority are claiming it especially as they creep past late seventies/ 80's. Many of the people i help claim it have literally thousands in the bank also as it is non means tested. receiving AA also can mean that it makes the claimant eligible for Pension credit or increases the pension credit hugely so people can then get potentially and extra £160 a week extra on top of state pension. I just don't see how this can be sustainable in the longer term ? I fully expect to be shouted down for saying this but where is the money coming from. The sheer amounts are just eye watering.

Blossomtoes · 23/10/2022 22:54

Excellent point @Havanananana. If only …

Babyroobs · 23/10/2022 22:58

Babyroobs · 23/10/2022 22:53

I work helping older people to claim benefits and to be honest I just can't see how we can afford to pay older people the benefits we do, especially with the predicted huge increase in pensioners. I help older people to claim benefits like Attendance allowance and unlike disability benefits for working age people, Attendance allowance seems to have a very low bar for being awarded. Given that with age all people will struggle with some of the things that AA is awarded for, I believe we will reach a point where the vast majority are claiming it especially as they creep past late seventies/ 80's. Many of the people i help claim it have literally thousands in the bank also as it is non means tested. receiving AA also can mean that it makes the claimant eligible for Pension credit or increases the pension credit hugely so people can then get potentially and extra £160 a week extra on top of state pension. I just don't see how this can be sustainable in the longer term ? I fully expect to be shouted down for saying this but where is the money coming from. The sheer amounts are just eye watering.

Should add also that the majority of my colleagues agree also - we were just discussing it the other day and they were in agreement that it just isn't sustainable and think the government will have to make changes.

Babasghost · 23/10/2022 23:04

100%
Taxation is required to support the most vulnerable that's the verybasis ofvilstation. As an illustration here's an excerpt from the Irish mini budget. They say these across the board payments are paid for out of corporation taxes.
Every student on a grant got 1000 euros.

When you give poor people money, they spend it, it reduces crime, reduces poor physical and mental health and reduces inflation.

It's not rocket science
Ps basis rate per week is 203 euros plus 33 euros fuel allowance.

Do you think our 21st century society can actually afford the full welfare state ideal?
Kendodd · 23/10/2022 23:11

@Havanananana

The reason we don't have all those things is because we voted not to. The FT recently described the UK as a poor country with a few super rich. I honestly don't know why we put up with it.

TeaPleaseNoLemon · 23/10/2022 23:14

This reply has been deleted

Previously banned poster - This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Kendodd · 23/10/2022 23:23

This reply has been deleted

Previously banned poster - This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

I think we should tax capital much more and income from work less (I personally would have to pay a lot more this way). The relationship between labour and capital is completely broken. Example, a person can work full time, leaving themselves poor, just to pay the rent. The LL has to do very little actual work, but makes good money, because they own the building.
I am the LL in this situation btw.

Kendodd · 23/10/2022 23:30

And I agree with other posters about child benefits. I don't get it but think I should, not even for the money, just because it ties me into society and get something really obvious out of it.

I'm really against things like charging for GP visits for the same reason. You'll have a section of society, paying taxes to fund all this stuff (fair enough) but then excluded from equal access.

LeMoo · 23/10/2022 23:32

Yes - you'd be surprised what's actually affordable

Getoff · 23/10/2022 23:41

TheOtherBoleynGirls · 23/10/2022 20:21

What kind of things do you mean? Slightly lower levels of care for everyone, or the super rich accepting huge taxes?

Everyone wants to "tax the rich." I have some reservations about this.

When it was introduced, I guess the idea was that the welfare state should provide for a minority of poor people. The average person was not supposed to be subsidised, if anything they should also be bearing some of the load. Which would be very affordable, because only a minority of people were being helped. Let's call this the 80:20 model: 80% of the population chip in to help the poorest 20%.

Things evolve, and the voting system encourages the poorer half of the population to obtain subsidies from the richer half. When I first looked at the figures, about 15 years ago, about half of households were net takers from the state, and half net-contributors. Fine, I can live with that. Let's call this the 50:50 model. The better-off 50% of the population help the poorer 50%.

(When I looked at the same figures more recently, I think more than 55% of households were being subsidised. Hopefully, this was just a temporary glitch, and we will return to 50%. When I first saw the 50% figure, I thought it must not be an accident, surely the system had been designed to achieve that. And I think that as a target, 50% being subsidised, no more and no less, is a reasonable compromise.),

But now when I listen to people, there seems to be the idea that the 1% should carry everyone else. This is the 1:99 model. I think this is utterly abusive, the 1% would be well within their rights to tell the 99% to go fuck themselves. (More prosaically, they'll just take steps to protect themselves, so I suppose it won't happen.)

CoffeeHousePot · 23/10/2022 23:56

No it’s not affordable. We need to be able to have sensible conversations about the NHS and welfare. The NHS was conceived at a time before huge expensive advances in medicine. Pensions as well - a huge proportion of people in the 50s didn’t get to pension age/only lived for a few years after claiming in.

Before people jump on shouting “Tax the wealthy more/Amazon”.. Taxes as a proportion of GDP have not been this high since the 1950s under Attlee. Taxes are like a bell curve. You have to balance between getting enough in and not taxing too much that people move abroad/start reducing hours”.

Kendodd · 23/10/2022 23:58

Getoff · 23/10/2022 23:41

Everyone wants to "tax the rich." I have some reservations about this.

When it was introduced, I guess the idea was that the welfare state should provide for a minority of poor people. The average person was not supposed to be subsidised, if anything they should also be bearing some of the load. Which would be very affordable, because only a minority of people were being helped. Let's call this the 80:20 model: 80% of the population chip in to help the poorest 20%.

Things evolve, and the voting system encourages the poorer half of the population to obtain subsidies from the richer half. When I first looked at the figures, about 15 years ago, about half of households were net takers from the state, and half net-contributors. Fine, I can live with that. Let's call this the 50:50 model. The better-off 50% of the population help the poorer 50%.

(When I looked at the same figures more recently, I think more than 55% of households were being subsidised. Hopefully, this was just a temporary glitch, and we will return to 50%. When I first saw the 50% figure, I thought it must not be an accident, surely the system had been designed to achieve that. And I think that as a target, 50% being subsidised, no more and no less, is a reasonable compromise.),

But now when I listen to people, there seems to be the idea that the 1% should carry everyone else. This is the 1:99 model. I think this is utterly abusive, the 1% would be well within their rights to tell the 99% to go fuck themselves. (More prosaically, they'll just take steps to protect themselves, so I suppose it won't happen.)

Thing is, where exactly did the 1% get all their money? Did they employ some of the 99%, paying them poverty wages, while hoarding all the profits for themselves? I think it's just a lie that we need the super rich, we don't, they need us as their workers and customers. Jeff Bezos didn't make all his money himself, thousands of people worked really hard and they all made that money, Bezos just took most of it for himself.

FaazoHuyzeoSix · 24/10/2022 00:17

We can afford it if everyone behaves decently as civilised members of society.
When the wealthy whine and cavill about their tax burden and structure their finances oh-so-cleverly to avoid what they can and hide their wealth in trusts and overseas shell holdings, and this sucks way more out of the system than any anount of falsely claimed benefits, then I can see how ot can look unaffordable.

But being poor and ill and weak and vulnerable isn't a moral failure or the result of bad decisions. It's simply bad luck and there but of the grace of god could go any of us.

Like the marvellous DrWho episode where a peace treaty is negotiated with the negotiators having no memory of which side they represent, we should all design and support a welfare state system with no knowledge of whether by the end of our lives we will be a net contributor or net recipient, and therefore the aim should be scrupulously fair. A decent civilised human should be ashamed to have masses of excess wealth when there are other human beings just down the road who are hungry and cold, and should be delighted that there's a simple and user-friendly system to redistribute money to where it is needed.

mummy203 · 24/10/2022 00:20

I think a large chunk maybe 75% of benefits/ UC goes to rent from private landlords. Council house rent was lower and the money went back to to the council.

this is why the system isn’t working anymore, in my opinion 😏

Tha · 24/10/2022 00:27

I think it's complicated.

I believe socialism is the best system for everyone but it begins to fall apart when we are talking about "communities" that are 60 odd MILLION people. Covid really hit this home for me.

If you have very small communities supporting each other then everyone can see that everyone is contributing in their own ways based on their ability / age / means etc, and they can actually see how their contribution is benefiting the community they care about. People are accountable and in return it's much easier to care. Maybe you can't work in a traditional sense but what can you do? Can you share your knowledge or help out at a youth group or knit hats etc? Stupid examples, obviously, but go back to how humans have lived for THOUSANDS of years and that's basically what happened. It was the elders watching out for the youngsters while the parents gathered food and built homes etc. I'm not an anarcho-primitive by any means but I feel like we are SO far away from typical human existence it's genuinely dangerous to our wellbeing and survival.

What clearly DOES NOT work is this horrendous system of cronyism. A "free market" which is propped up and messed with at every single level from tax credits to free bus travel to help to buy to government contracts to the millions of different grants and funding opportunities for those companies in the know enough to work the system. This odd combination of millions of £ for 'rewilding initiatives' and £750,000 for an individuals council funded further education (mentioned on here yesterday), but working people resorting to food banks and children learning In portacabins because their class has 10 new refugees in the last couple of years is madness.

Totally unsustainable.

caringcarer · 24/10/2022 00:34

Probably not possible. Just look last week, many babies died due to neglect in hospital. Huge compensation is paid out of NHS budget. I bet staff never even lost their jobs.

MangyInseam · 24/10/2022 00:47

I think it really depends on what you mean by "full welfare state".

We can probably afford supports for people who really can't work, for example, but maybe not if the number of people who don't work becomes larger and larger.

Or health care is a real example where there could be issues. As tech improves, and people live longer, we could probably spend an almost infinite amount of money of health. That is impossible, so there will have to be limits.

I suppose one basic way to look at it is, to afford a welfare state, you need good productivity.

NotTodayPal · 24/10/2022 00:56

EmmaH2022 · 23/10/2022 20:40

Weird examples. Surely thrush is an illness?!

I don't want to fund a lot of stuff we currently fund.

of course if you have a broken leg, I think we should pay to endure a full recovery.

tattoo removal? Hmm...no. IVF...? No. That one upsets a lot of people.

also, can council tax be per person, with parents paying for children obvs.

There was a thread a few days ago from someone who was very disgruntled that she wasn’t getting her thrush cream on prescription @EmmaH2022

StoneofDestiny · 24/10/2022 01:03

Of course we can afford it. We just need to prioritise where our taxes go. We have just spent millions burying a 96 year old - that money should have been directed to the NHS. Likewise the £115,000 or whatever the figure is Liz Truss will now get for life! Scrap ridiculous vanity projects that will only benefit a tiny minority, like HS2 - invest in the NHS, Education, Mental Health Care and Disability provision.

MintyFreshOne · 24/10/2022 05:48

Bacibaci · 23/10/2022 22:05

I just found this blog post by a Professor Richard Murphy on a book that says the data doesn’t support the claim that the majority of rich will leave a country if they are taxed more.

‘One of the classic claims of the wealthy, and their friends on both the political right and in the tax abuse industry, is that if the rich are taxed then they up and leave a place. Except now we know that is not true. A new study by Cristobal Young shows that. The publicity for his new book says:

In this age of globalization, many countries and U.S. states are worried about the tax flight of the rich. As income inequality grows and U.S. states consider raising taxes on their wealthiest residents, there is a palpable concern that these high rollers will board their private jets and fly away, taking their wealth with them. Many assume that the importance of location to a person's success is at an all-time low. Cristobal Young, however, makes the surprising argument that location is very important to the world's richest people. Frequently, he says, place has a great deal to do with how they make their millions.

In The Myth of Millionaire Tax Flight, Young examines a trove of data on millionaires and billionaires–confidential tax returns, Forbes lists, and census records–and distills down surprising insights. While economic elites have the resources and capacity to flee high-tax places, their actual migration is surprisingly limited. For the rich, ongoing economic potential is tied to the place where they become successful–often where they are powerful insiders–and that success ultimately diminishes both the incentive and desire to migrate.

This important book debunks a powerful idea that has driven fiscal policy for years, and in doing so it clears the way for a new era. Millionaire taxes, Young argues, could give states the funds to pay for infrastructure, education, and other social programs to attract a group of people who are much more mobile–the younger generation.
And today he has written in the Guardian, saying:

To better understand elite migration across state lines, I analysed tax return data from every million-dollar income-earner in the United States. The dataset includes 3.7 million top-earning individuals, who collectively filed more than 45 million tax returns over more than a dozen years — showing where millionaires live and where they move to.

And it turns out that place still matters for the rich — much more so than we might think.

Only about 2.4% of US-based millionaires change their state of residence in a given year. Interstate migration is actually more common among the US middle class, and almost twice as common among its poorest residents, who have an annual interstate migration rate of 4.5%.
This is, of course, what we could expect. It's easy to move when you have very little, or when you're young. It gets harder the older you get. And incidentally, as he finds, when people do move then it's to the sun, and not for low tax. Again, there's nothing new in that.

But what does that mean? It means we can tax wealth because the rich stay put.

And we can have progressive taxation.

The arguments over: the facts are what matters. Now let's get on with it.

You do know Americans pay a federal tax rate, right? And that they still have to pay those taxes regardless of where they live globally?

This is not the case for the vast majority of countries, so not instructive to the British case.

endlesscraziness · 24/10/2022 05:56

I think we need to look At German and Australian healthcare models. The NHS is currently failing and a new approach is needed

Kendodd · 24/10/2022 09:56

mummy203 · 24/10/2022 00:20

I think a large chunk maybe 75% of benefits/ UC goes to rent from private landlords. Council house rent was lower and the money went back to to the council.

this is why the system isn’t working anymore, in my opinion 😏

I don't think you're correct with you're numbers (might be though) but I agree with your point.
I think the biggest thing the government could do to reduce poverty is a massive council house building, and even buying, programmes. The private rented market has failed the masses while making a few big winners. If we had high quality, affordable rent, readily available, landlord of first, not last, resort, this would make a huge difference to people's lives. Ultimately, it would also be a money maker for councils, they could make a small profit from each unit.
I would also encourage downsizing. Not booting people out, but no CT discounts for single people in family homes, etc. Moving and redecoration costs paid to downsize etc.

TodayInahurry · 24/10/2022 10:14

The super rich are generally very mobile. My friend works for a multi billionaire who owns numerous properties in the UK and abroad, all will be in trusts and companies. This person has just moved to Switzerland to avoid UK taxes in the event of Labour taking over.

DullAndOvercast · 24/10/2022 10:18

donttellmehesalive · 23/10/2022 20:29

Mervyn King was on breakfast news this morning saying that we absolutely can't afford it. He thinks austerity will be worse than after 2008. He said we want European-style welfare but low US-style taxes. He said everyone thinks we need to tax the rich more but there aren't enough of them to sort it out even if we taxed them to the hilt. No idea if he's right but it was depressing. He predicts lower standards and higher taxes for everyone.

I saw this and though he sounded reasonable.

A lot of the demographers stuff suggests we are entering a very difficult period economically - youthful population and economic growth do seem to be very linked.

I do think we need higher taxes - across the board and that would include taxing the rich more but also a lot of other people like us more as well - NHS reform /look at European co-pay systems with safety nets.

I think what we'll get is a lower of standards as population ages - ever increasing retirement ages and fewer resources for current working population when they get to retirement age. Some of that could possibly be mitigated with better management perhaps - but most of the population is in denial thinking there's someone else to tax more not them.

DullAndOvercast · 24/10/2022 10:21

I think the biggest thing the government could do to reduce poverty is a massive council house building, and even buying, programmes. The private rented market has failed the masses while making a few big winners. If we had high quality, affordable rent, readily available, landlord of first, not last, resort, this would make a huge difference to people's lives.

Actually agree with this -but I can't see it happening any time soon.