To wonder how a £36k a year education can meet DS’s needs if a £250k one can’t?

[GoneBatty]

Private residential SEND college (out of area) costs £250k a year. They are saying DS’s needs are too high for them to manage.

Council are saying a £36k a year local outreach provision can meet his needs.

It’s all very fishy as SEND college at first said they felt they could meet DS’s needs so we visited, all was OK. As as soon as the council (who will have to fund it) got involved, college backtracked and said they couldn’t meet his needs.

They have given nonsensical reasons which I have mitigated numerous times. Both the college and council have told blatant lies and I’ve caught them out in two big ones!

Now we have reached Tribunal the college is suddenly full which was not an issue a few months ago so know they’re lying again as they would know numbers of students months in advance due to Tribunals and the time it take to get funding. Also most Tribunals due to take place over the summer were postponed for this age group.

AIBU to suspect the council has given the college a backhander to say they can’t meet his needs? It would cost council £750k for a 3 year program. They could have given a £100k ‘investment’ per se? Still saves a lot of money!

There is literally no other provision like this in the country. I have approached 21 other colleges, local and out of area. DS has had no proper provision for over a year and he is running out of time as age 20 - EHCP is to 25.

Do I sound nuts (I feel it)? Can this actually be possible?

Of course they didn't pay them off!

Also £750,000 shouldn't ever be approved anyway. Ridiculous.

But one's residential and one's living at home. Maybe they think your child will thrive better at home?
No way can the council hide a 750,000 backhander. Lol. It didn't happen.

Well it has been for all the other students there who apparently have lower needs than DS! All are.funded by their local authority. There are are other colleges all around the country like this which I should imagine cost similar and they are full of funded students.

Its not like I looked for the most expensive provision. I looked for a provision which could meet DS’s needs and there is nothing locally so had to look for residential. They don’t display fees as local authority funded.

Didn’t even know the cost until a few weeks ago when the Tribunal paperwork was submitted and I was shocked too.

It’s not the education which costs 250K it’s the care needs from being a residential school.

Sorry but it does sound a bit wild to accuse the council of back handers. Who would risk their job and a criminal conviction to save the council money??

So your son is 20, and you want him to continue into some kind of further education, which can only be met by a boarding college. The council believes he doesn't need to be boarded/ live away from home to continue his education, and this can be supplied locally. What's you're reason for him having to be away 24/7 from home at his age? What age does this college usually facility?

I have no idea how they came to that figure of £250k. That would be the full time salaries of quite a few people. I would love a breakdown.
YANBU.

I work at one of these places. In general my place accepts more students than councils agree to fund, so I don't think they would say they sant accept him because the council told them to.

Does your son have violent behaviour? As my place is now accepting less people with behaviour- as many staff get injured and there is already a problem with staff shortages.

Exactly this.
Why on earth would anyone agree to pay £750k for a 3 year program when there is an alternative closer to home not requiring full time boarding.

On the face of it, something's not adding up, all the best op

Another thought is the package he needs. £250k would indicate a high level of need, maybe 2:1 support or 1:1 over night? Maybe the college were saying they can accommodate him on that package but the council said they would only pay the lower package so the college can no longer accommodate him?

@PimmsOfCourse it seems a lot but is not really for care. E.g. if someone needs a 1:1 all the time, the centre needs to cover 21 shifts a week, plus staff training, holiday, sickness. So 4/5 full time staff per individual, then there is the staff in the school, the managers, nurses, physio, maintenance, admin, hr etc. Then paying for all accommodation, bills, food etc.

Just to add, sad but true… councils don’t not invest money into any kind of education for any young adults post 19 anymore.

Tuition fees and living expenses are paid via personal loans from student finance.
It would be amazing if we went back to the days of council funded further education but those days are long gone.

Basically, your council has decided that a 750K investment in your DC’s education is not possible.

But you're not comparing like with like this is like comparing apples to tomatoes!

Where has he been until now?

Some people are being quite judgemental about you wanting to "send your 20 year old ds away" op, but I'm guessing from the post that he's extremely high needs and you're struggling to meet them at home?
Firstly, it's very unlikely that they gave the college a back-hander as this would be illegal.
How did the visit to the college go? Did he show behaviours that they concerned them?
Have more reports been sent?
As @TwitchyJerk said, it's likely that the LA are only prepared to fund a lower rate of care than they feel is safe for him and this has influenced them.
Or, maybe the college have experienced problems that you don't know about EG staff members being injured and so tightening up on their admission criteria or experienced staff leaving leading to them having to limit places.

Anyway, if you are struggling to keep him safely at home with you then I think you'll have to go through social services to find some sort of residential or supported living facility to meet his needs.

Good luck!

Have you done the SAR's on the LA and college to see if anything can be picked up there? Depending on tribunal date I'm not sure they would be back in time.

What are they offering in section H of the ehcp instead of residential placement with the alt placement and have you appealed social care aswell as education?

I'd be looking for a back up placement or package ready for tribunal.

I hope it goes well and it gets vacated before the hearing.

I do agree with you that it's a cost issue but the other side of the argument is that the £750000 is needed more, or could make a bigger impact elsewhere in the council. Just because we need something, we are not entitled to it necessarily as others' needs are even greater. Special needs budgets are nowhere near enough so the council will be having to make some awful decisions.

For those questioning the cost. Children and young people with an ehcp can stay I education until 25 years old (26 depending on the course dates). They have to have their needs met this is a legal requirement. If ultimately it costs 250k that is what the LA have to fund.

Many children/ YP with send
have specialist placements without residential that cost upwards of £100k from primary age.

£750,000!

Further.....

With ehcps provision has to be made to meet every need that gets detailed. This is a legal requirement it isn't just something nice the LA can choose to do, although most LA'S try it on.

It doesn't matter that in others view it can be better spent elsewhere. Unfortunately though this is why so many families end up at tribunal and why many ehcp's aren't worth the paper they are written on.

@TwitchyJerk No violent behaviour ever. Not even with brothers. No police or SS involvement until I fought for an adult disability SW. Has ASD but no 'meltdowns' either. Was bullied all through secondary called 'r***' etc but never involved in fighting. No incidents with other students or staff ever. In fact he always said as having great manners and politeness all though secondary school.

Are you a Section 41 provision by any chance? How does it look if a S41 provision approved since 2018 suddenly is no longer approved in the run up to a Tribunal. Obviously little chance of funding? I was informed that the college was no longer approved by my local council - how did they know of this sudden change? Who informed them? College had already said they.couldn't meet his needs and is far out of area.

I went to the DfE to check this as thought odd and was informed they were in fact S41 approved by had been removed from the list for 2 months then put back on, Head of college said it was due to awaiting an Ofsted inspection but this hasn't taken place and wasn't due. I understand colleges have to agree to be S41 approved so could they have taken it off and put it back on themselves?

I believe the council obviously was in communication with the college and told me they were not Section 41 approved to get me to withdraw from the Tribunal but that didn't work so now they are saying they are full but on the Tribunal paperwork they duplicated a student which my eagle eye picked up! Obviously a 'mistake' and they sent it though again.

The college said initially they had no concerns. would offer a 3 year program. all very positive. I asked the council to do the consultation. Council told me they did not have the consultation back for 2 weeks after they did! I'm the consultation response, College said they had concerns about his MH but they are an SEMH college! Even DS's psychiatrist is perplexed and wrote a letter saying it should not be s concern for them. Then they said they were concerned about his learning levels but they are similar to other students and they have other students with learning difficulties so again shouldn't be a concern.

None of it makes sense! Is it any wonder I'm paranoid and thinking corruption?

There is no other provision in our area. I have approached 20 now and this has been going on for a year.

Council only named this local outreach provision after I requested residential college after 6 months with no provision. They didn't identify one themselves which was why I had to.

Outreach didn't start for a further 6 months due to staffing and is only 2 afternoons a week Waling around the local area from home so no actual college. They should have started a 3 day week provision in September and haven't.

If DS had not been monumentally failed for the last 15 years with no support of suitable education provision, he wouldn't need this now!

He is eligible for supported living here but council will not tell me the costs to offset against the residential bit if the college.

College is up to 25 so he had just enough time to get into the 3 year program, His psychiatrist and educational psychologist agree he could be largely independent and need little support with the right education and therapeutic provision. Otherwise he will be in supported living and claiming benefits for the rest of his life with a lot of MH and social care intervention probably which will cost a bloody site more!

Yes and DS has an EHCP which he only got at 15. No therapies, SALT, OT only just seen a psychiatrist after 14 month wait due to previous self harming. SW does not nothing. No personal budget. Still waiting for assessment which was done for the 2nd time 4 months ago as had 3 SWs in 6 months and the first one said he needed a personal assistant but current one says he doesn't.

Is it any wonder I want him in a provision that offers a clinical psychologist, SALT, OT and that has a specific facility on-site that he is gifted in, together with all the students having the same diagnosis as him so he can finally fit in somewhere?

All students there are funded, with apparently lower needs, so why not him?

The vast majority of students in these colleges are funded by their councils. I doubt many parents of SEND students have £750k to spare. You can hardly keep up a career with being a carer to a disabled child can you? FFS!

Ds 16 has just been refused residential provision on the basis that his needs are very complex and the care side cannot guarantee they can find the support he needs. There is a major issue at the moment with provision for young people / adults with higher needs.

To those talking about costs - this is what this type of placement costs. Ds's day placement is about 120K a year. There has been no investment in state provision for those with the highest needs so businesses can charge as they like.

Im not an expert and I don’t know when the tribunal is but if you’re serious that you think it’s fishy. If you’ve got some time before hand I would contact the college to discuss self funding.

Approach it from a point of view of this is an option if tribunal not successful. Ask for quotes. Ask for details. Ask about paying monthly. Ask about partial funding by charities - do they have contacts. Ask for them to send info and quote through by email. Don’t mention them saying they’re full or unsuitable or anything being discussed at tribunal. Basically separate the two processes.

If you can get them to send you through info making it clear they would admit if you self funded then I think that would be pretty useful for tribunal....

My son was refused SEN provision at 2 independent SEN schools on the basis that he needed a high level of 1:1 support and they could not recruit staff due to labour shortages. I tbi k the inoendent sextor can pick and choose even if the LA approves the funding.