To wonder how a £36k a year education can meet DS’s needs if a £250k one can’t?

[GoneBatty]

Private residential SEND college (out of area) costs £250k a year. They are saying DS’s needs are too high for them to manage.

Council are saying a £36k a year local outreach provision can meet his needs.

It’s all very fishy as SEND college at first said they felt they could meet DS’s needs so we visited, all was OK. As as soon as the council (who will have to fund it) got involved, college backtracked and said they couldn’t meet his needs.

They have given nonsensical reasons which I have mitigated numerous times. Both the college and council have told blatant lies and I’ve caught them out in two big ones!

Now we have reached Tribunal the college is suddenly full which was not an issue a few months ago so know they’re lying again as they would know numbers of students months in advance due to Tribunals and the time it take to get funding. Also most Tribunals due to take place over the summer were postponed for this age group.

AIBU to suspect the council has given the college a backhander to say they can’t meet his needs? It would cost council £750k for a 3 year program. They could have given a £100k ‘investment’ per se? Still saves a lot of money!

There is literally no other provision like this in the country. I have approached 21 other colleges, local and out of area. DS has had no proper provision for over a year and he is running out of time as age 20 - EHCP is to 25.

Do I sound nuts (I feel it)? Can this actually be possible?

It doesn’t cost £250.000 a year
would be interested to know where

What does this mean? We all support these massive costs so there is no money for anything else?

I think people who think 750k is too much are missing the point
a. This young person is going to cost the council an extreme amount of money for care regardless. OP is not obliged to provide care to a 20yo so 750k over three years is within the ballpark of what they’d be paying anyway if OP decides not to be an unpaid carer anymore.

b. This placement has a higher chance of enabling this young person to live independently rather than in an extremely expensive supported setting for the rest of his life. 750k now or several million over the next 40+ years?

Providing appropriate support early is fiscally responsible.

£250 is a ridiculous amount. Placement around £100k a year are usually for those with extreme needs that need up to 2 or 3 staff for one patient, usually due to violent behaviour.

I've never heard of a social care placement that is more than twice this amount for a young person who displays no violent behaviour.

I suspect that most pupils there are indeed self funding. Very rich parents, those trust funds, maybe those with accident compensation packages.

This young person is going to cost the council an extreme amount of money for care regardless
Placements in the community are much less than that, thankfully.

Plus an EHCP up to 25 should only be in place if a learner can make academic progress and achieve qualifications . It isnt about providing care

What are people proposing happens to individuals with high care needs if too expensive. That they just dont get any educayion, medical treatment or care?

the number of taxpayers required to pay for this is massive. Colossal amount of money. How do other countries fund it how was this done 40 years ago? Modern healthcare and support whilst a great improvement leads to some very expensive outcomes the state never had to fund in the past. You can't spend this much money on one person without taking from others.

OP's reason is lack of anything closer to home that can meet her son's needs. It's highly unlikely that local outreach provision can meet the requirements of a properly written EHCP.

And how much more than 750K does this sound like, once the cost of the alternative care (inc inpatient care), lost earnings, unfulfilled potential, distress, etc, whilst achieving worse outcomes?

to those saying 750K is too much

This placement has a higher chance of enabling this young person to live independently rather than in an extremely expensive supported setting for the rest of his life. 750k now or several million over the next 40+ years?
If only such treatment existed that allow a person to go from needing 1 or 2 full time care to being fully indeoendent! It doesn't.

The chances of local outreach provision being a realistic alternative for someone with an EHCP are realistically nil. Bear in mind also that there is no obligation for 20 year olds to be housed by their parents anyway.

OP, I'm sorry this is proving difficult for you and I hope things get resolved for you and your son soon.

I do think you're being a little paranoid though. The council will not have paid off or given a back-hander to the college. If it costs £250K a year then that is what it costs but the Council is duty-bound to be responsible with tax payers money. Therefore if your sons needs can be met by provision that costs £36K a year, the council is obliged to to opt for that.

That is not the case in relation to young people with EHC Plans. Councils have a statutory obligation to deliver what is in them including paying fees for any placement named in the Plan.

There is something utterly obscene about this thread. The money being spent

YANBU the SEND provision world is complicated and expensive. Unless you operate in that world and have experienced it you'd likely have no idea of cost. People are stunned at the cost of my DC provision but all local LA schools said they could not meet her needs. There was nowhere else.

@TwitchyJerk No violent behaviour ever. Not even with brothers. No police or SS involvement until I fought for an adult disability SW. Has ASD but no 'meltdowns' either. Was bullied all through secondary called 'retard' etc but never involved in fighting. No incidents with other students or staff ever. In fact he always said as having great manners and politeness all though secondary school.

so the only diagnosis is ASD? And mild at that

Not for profound learning difficulties but for complex mental health needs then appropriate treatment can significantly reduce or eliminate the need for ongoing support. The OP talks of a Psychiatrist as lead professional so I assume mental health is a significant need here.

I also assume the psychiatrist as the lead professional knows better than either of us what this particular young person’s potential is and they are stating this placement will likely reduce the likelihood of needing supported living in the long term.

Im pretty sure 40 years ago people with high care needs were largely in residential homes run local authorities. I dont think these would have been cheap to run.

I think this should be moved to the send boards, op.
You're just going to get the usual snippy aibu responses here.
Can you appeal?

Naming a high price is also a tactic some providers use rather than saying no

we have 1 where the standard is about £50k but if they do t want a child or young person they come back with £100k and a list of why they need that to meet need.

they know the LA will then look for an alternative

it’s a broken profit driven system

That really is not the other side of the argument. Councils have a statutory obligation to meet the needs of children with SEN who require EHCPs, full stop. The law literally says that, because children with SEN and disabilities need support in education, they are entitled to it and must receive it. Councils can't suddenly decide that something else is more important than educating children with SEND.

It's true that SEN budgets are way too low, but councils should be presenting the reality to Parliament, day after day. The answer is not to deprive disabled children of what they are entitled to by law.

Whether the council should pay or not aside. Your thinking here is totally unreasonable:

"AIBU to suspect the council has given the college a backhander to say they can’t meet his needs? It would cost council £750k for a 3 year program. They could have given a £100k ‘investment’ per se? Still saves a lot of money!"

A council aren't going to pay a "backhanded" that costs €250,00 more to avoid paying for your child's education. For a start it makes very little budgetary sense (being the opposite of saving money). This isn't the council spending an extra quarter of a million to specifically prevent your son's education.

Do you really want to be the one who tells parents of children with disabilities that their children can be thrown on the scrapheap because they're not worth educating? If not, where do you draw the line?

Bear in mind that that investment can very literally make the difference between a child growing into a self supporting taxpaying independent adult, and being dependent on care all their lives. The cost of that will be many, many times £750K.

No, I think the £36k a year option sounds entirely reasonable and have no problem with the councils money being spent on that. £250k a year on one person however, no matter what the reason, I will never agree with whilst there are others living in poverty and needing houses. Basic food and housing should be the priority.