To wonder how a £36k a year education can meet DS’s needs if a £250k one can’t?

[GoneBatty]

Private residential SEND college (out of area) costs £250k a year. They are saying DS’s needs are too high for them to manage.

Council are saying a £36k a year local outreach provision can meet his needs.

It’s all very fishy as SEND college at first said they felt they could meet DS’s needs so we visited, all was OK. As as soon as the council (who will have to fund it) got involved, college backtracked and said they couldn’t meet his needs.

They have given nonsensical reasons which I have mitigated numerous times. Both the college and council have told blatant lies and I’ve caught them out in two big ones!

Now we have reached Tribunal the college is suddenly full which was not an issue a few months ago so know they’re lying again as they would know numbers of students months in advance due to Tribunals and the time it take to get funding. Also most Tribunals due to take place over the summer were postponed for this age group.

AIBU to suspect the council has given the college a backhander to say they can’t meet his needs? It would cost council £750k for a 3 year program. They could have given a £100k ‘investment’ per se? Still saves a lot of money!

There is literally no other provision like this in the country. I have approached 21 other colleges, local and out of area. DS has had no proper provision for over a year and he is running out of time as age 20 - EHCP is to 25.

Do I sound nuts (I feel it)? Can this actually be possible?

Yes, there’s no way the council should spend £750k on one child’s education when there are others in huge poverty and facing homelessness. That £750k could provide a few permanent homes for families. There isn’t an unlimited budget.

"My son was refused SEN provision at 2 independent SEN schools on the basis that he needed a high level of 1:1 support and they could not recruit staff due to labour shortages. I tbi k the inoendent sextor can pick and choose even if the LA approves the funding."

That is what happened with us. The residential side of the school said they couldn't guarantee staffing. Schools are more likely to take young people who are easier to find staff for.

"Yes, there’s no way the council should spend £750k on one child’s education when there are others in huge poverty and facing homelessness."

That will include care costs. A residential non educational placement will also be very expensive. In many cases that is the bulk of the costs.

But what the council does have an obligation to do (sharing the costs with the NHS in some cases) is provide appropriate health and social care for an individual.

For some individuals that can cost £10-£20k a week. That's a highly unusual amount but not absurd.

If someone lives in supported accomodation and has a 1-to-1 say, including waking nights, the cost of that could easily be £2k a week just in 1-to-1 staffing costs, plus the cost of the home itself - you could easily be looking at £150k a year before you look at education at all.

We don't know what this boy's needs are, and we don't know how likely it is that the college can get him to a point of living independently Vs the proposed outreach that the council is providing.

Depending on the child's needs and what staff it takes to manage his supported housing provision, the difference between current care costs and the cost of the education might not be as significant as it first appears. If it really does have the potential to ensure he can live independently it might save the system money in the long run.

I am fairly certain everyone is entitled to a personal budget for social care OP - could you ask for one, noting that you're currently happy for it to be "notional" i.e the council keeps paying but you have an awareness of cost so you can use that in the tribunal case.

I'm sorry I don't have any expertise but if you can afford a decent solicitor specialising in this area it might be worth looking into. Try searching on Chambers and Partners. All the best.

To those of you objecting to the costs , you need to understand that these types of schools/colleges are for young people with significant care needs and much of the cost relates to that.Its therefore the cost of 24 hours specialist care, education and therapies such as speech and language. It's not education in the way you may imagine it to be.

OP, I work in this area. Are you saying the placement is a s41 school or non s41?

I've been working in this sector for years and never seen things as bad as they are at the moment due to trouble recruiting. Residential schools are particularly badly hit.

@wildseas The school is £250k pa. I think that's beyond what most people can self fund.

They will have read something in your ds paperwork that puts them off. It could be to do with his mental health needs.

Agreed. We are budgeting to pay £2,200 CT each year, which we do. The money could be better spent elsewhere.

Agree. This is ludicrous and should never be allowed. 250 per year on one person??

£750,000???????? Wow. Staggering number. I think the subject raises underlying questions about how funds are / can be distributed for the benefit of those in society, and ones own perspective will be highly contextualised. For those that believe it is too much and not a worthy cause for that extent of money, a question arises over how you reconcile equally expensive medical treatment for substance addition, or the costs to imprison life sentences, etc.

Perhaps the pragmatist perspective is to consider “what problem are you trying to solve?”. I’d question whether the problem is actually concern over council backhanders or fraudulent activity.

I’d assume, if the placement costs £250k pa, they are looking at 2:1 care all his waking hours, not in the classroom? One of the managers where DD lives, told me they are not taking people who need 2:1 care - because of the problems getting staff.

For those people complaining about the cost, that is likely to be how much his care would cost, if his parents can no longer look after him anyway. The question would only be - would he just be funded in college by the education department at the local authority; or social services or the NHS in a care setting?

When you see these scandals on television from time to time like Winterbourne View or Connor Sparrowhawk, those placements were probably costing £4,000 per week, and just providing care.

Ask the college OP, if the problem is getting the care staff?

I feel for you OP. It costs what it costs, and those saying it would be "better spent elsewhere" clearly have no experience of having to fight this fight. When other children and young adults are able to access further education, your DS should be able to as well. How would those parents feel if their child was denied a college place because "the fees the LA pay could feed a family of four for three years".

'College is up to 25 so he had just enough time to get into the 3 year program, His psychiatrist and educational psychologist agree he could be largely independent and need little support with the right education and therapeutic provision. Otherwise he will be in supported living and claiming benefits for the rest of his life with a lot of MH and social care intervention probably which will cost a bloody site more!'

When my son was 15, school could no longer meet his needs, despite the fact that he has 1:1 support. He was admitted to a CAMHS unit, and, after a lot of trouble, we found a residential school with a sixth form, which had an on-site psychiatrist, behavioural specialists and so on. The provision was not too far from where we lived, and we assumed that he could be a weekly boarder.

It was really important that he received help for his MH, that it was appropriate for his needs as a young person with autism, and that he also received the help to transition to adulthood (he was socially isolated at home).

There were problems with funding, delays, questions about who paid for what, and in the end the placement fell through. For three years, my son was in and out of CAMHS units and living precariously at home. His younger brother, who also has additional needs, added to my son's problems because he was also not in education or training on the grounds of poor mental health and he wanted to control everything is his environment, including his older brother.

I gave up going out to work, to look after my sons. Fortunately, I could work from home, but even that was, and still is, difficult. At 18, my eldest, with help from an adult social worker and me, managed to find residential care for people with MH difficulties (it was not an educational setting). He spent three years in the residential setting, and now, at 23, he lives in supported accommodation, has severe mental health problems, and works a few hours a week as a volunteer in an animal shelter.

I often wonder if his situation would have been different if he attended the residential school.

£750k?!?! I’m sorry if you son has extensive needs but that amount is just ridiculous. You cannot expect Councils to pay that amount of money for ONE person. Just think how many social workers that would pay, amount of school dinners, classroom assistants etc

It works out to be £684 per day for education, therapies, accomodation, utilities, meals and care staff available at all times. It's not that bad when you look at it like that.

The clinical psychologist where DD lives, commented to me that parents of young people would seek a placement in the FE college; the LA would refuse them the funding and send the young person to the local FE college. The placement would break down within the year, and the parents would be back again seeking a placement - each time, the young person has suffered more emotional damage!

"£750k?!?! I’m sorry if you son has extensive needs but that amount is just ridiculous. You cannot expect Councils to pay that amount of money for ONE person."

That is how much residential placements ( care or educational) cost.

I understand but it’s still a ridiculous amount of money for one person

Just to add, sad but true… councils don’t not invest money into any kind of education for any young adults post 19 anymore
They do when a young person has an EHCP.

Ds is 18 and is a day student at an independent specialist college funded by our LA and it's expensive.

Parents who are fighting to secure appropriate care and education for their children have enough stress, without suggestions from some that they are taking money away from the local homeless population or 'school dinners'.

Some people commenting really have no idea about supporting a child with significant needs.

What are people proposing happens to individuals with high care needs if too expensive. That they just dont get any educayion, medical treatment or care?

In answer to op, it is possible a cheaper school could meet needs if they are set up differently but without knowing more detail I couldnt say here.

I do actually think some independent sen provisions are charging what they can get away with and LAs are not properly holding them to account for delivering what they charge for.

I also think back handers are unlikely, but i do think LA fun schools are under pressure to say they can meet needs even if they arent sure so if the cheaper one is LA that might be why.

"now they are saying they are full but on the Tribunal paperwork they duplicated a student which my eagle eye picked up!"

Does this mean that they sent you a list of names of students attending? This is surely a data protection breech if so?!

I work in a related field and do not think it is costly for the type of care. However, adult acre provision is poorly funded and hard to staff. I would keep pushing for exact reasons (for example it could be they are full because they aren't fully staffed). You are your son's voice in this (what are his wishes?). I know it must be hugely stressful.

divide and conquer wins

I agree that such costs are eye watering for individuals. For posters surprised, this sort of thing happens all the time. Councils are typically funding 100s if not 1000s of places in independent specialist schools each year, many of which are for profit. We need much more transparency in the system so the public and parents can understand more about how and where such funds are going.

I know I will get slammed for this but, the council should not be paying that amount for one person. It is absolutely insane and I would be fuming if I found out my tax is funding that sort of thing.

OP, you say that your son will learn to be largely independent if he goes to this school. Why can’t you teach him independent living skills at home? That is a parents job, my son is on the autistic spectrum and I was told he would probably not be independent as an adult. He is, completely independent because I taught him to be. It wasn’t easy sometimes and you need the patience of a saint but he can manage completely by himself, bar some help with managing money, he works, he goes to college, he can cook basic meals he didn’t have a £250,000 year education.