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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To dump my Ukrainian guests as homeless?

325 replies

razzbo · 20/10/2022 20:26

It's not as evil as it sounds, bear with me. They have been living with me for 6 months and their jobs here have ended. I live in a very rural place, they don't drive and don't speak English. There is basically no chance of them getting other jobs here. The jobs they had here were given out of charity to be honest. They have found new jobs in Scotland - all 3 of them working in the same place, full time, £10 an hour, where there are other Ukrainians. Which I think they are very lucky to get considering they speak no English.

So we looked at finding them somewhere to rent but they looked at the price of rent and said no. They wanted me to find them a new sponsor so they could live for free. I tried my hardest but the council said no, and facebook said no. There are no sponsors. The council said to try the housing associations for a cheap place so I tried them all. Took forever to get answers out of them but the answers were no. They still won't rent privately. Then one of the housing association people suggested I make them homeless so that they get given temporary accommodation. My guests were up for this. I phoned around and found out all the details. 5 separate council employees (both here and in Scotland) said it was an OK idea and that they would be given somewhere to live. The plan was made - I was meant to be taking them next week and leaving them there. I phoned the council in Scotland today to just check the times of the homelessness drop-in and to check whether there was anything else I needed to know. Again, all was fine.

THEN the woman phoned me back to say she'd spoken to her manager who had said that because they are in England now and are registered at my address, they can't be made homeless in Scotland (even though they have jobs there, i.e. a reason to be there). She said that if I took them to the drop-in the council would not accept responsibility for them and would not give them housing and I would actually be making them PROPERLY HOMELESS and they would be sleeping on the street.

I cried on the phone. Basically, the truth is that I have to get rid of them. I can't handle them living in my house any more. I have been so kind and nice to them but it's been too much. They won't leave unless they have jobs to go to as they just want the money. They refuse to rent. I could make them homeless here but I would have to live with them hating me and crying at me (they do this a lot to get their way) while waiting for their new accommodation.

I was so close to being free. If I'd never phoned the council today I could have just taken them to Scotland and left them and been none the wiser about it all. What should I do? If it was you, would you just take them anyway? Surely the council has a duty of care to anyone who turns up saying they are homeless? Surely if you are a homeless human being it doesn't matter which county you last lived in? Also they have a child with them. Surely they will be given somewhere to stay if I take them to the drop-in?

OP posts:
notanothertakeaway · 21/10/2022 07:36

Proteinpudding · 20/10/2022 21:34

@Cw112 each council 'looks after their own' so to speak, when it comes to emergency housing - unless there is a specific reason defined in law (eg needing to flee DV and moving out of area for safety)
If people could pick the areas they want temporary accommodation in, I'm pretty sure central London, Oxford, St Ives etc would be somewhat disproportionately affected by applicant numbers!

Yes that's my understanding. To qualify for social housing in Scotland, you have to have a connection to the local authority. Usually residence

FaazoHuyzeoSix · 21/10/2022 07:43

Yanbu the important thing is to get them relocated to where their new jobs are. They won't sleep on the streets, they will sofa-surf with other Ukrainian workers until they accept that actually paying rent is inescapable. They will have an income and will find somewhere.

Even if they are accepted as homeless and found accommodation, rent is still due. Expecting to live for free when earning is startlingly unreasonable.

EmeraldShamrock1 · 21/10/2022 07:43

Yes that's my understanding. To qualify for social housing in Scotland,

What about a private rental.
Could they claim rent supplement for a private flat.

Tell them to go to Ireland. They don't need a sponsor they'll receive accommodation while includes utility bills and 3 daily meals while claiming 208 per week and rent substitutions.

There is literally no where available for rent up and down the country, medical services are very poor.

Hotels are opened for Ukrainian refugees.

There is still 100's arriving daily living in hubs, centres and hotels.

Tourism is dead because there's no accommodation for tourist's.

A few more won't hurt. 😃

Banjaxx · 21/10/2022 07:51

@EmeraldShamrock1 what? That’s insane! I mean great from a humanitarian perspective, but how is that socially and financially sustainable?

fortheloveofflowers · 21/10/2022 07:51

OP they are more than capable of making their own DR’s appointment and Doug a whole array of other things, they just don’t need to because you are doing it.

We would all like to live rent free but that’s not life regardless of where you’ve come from. Stop being a mug and let them sort stuff out themselves, it’s up to them to find housing. They have jobs, they have plenty of money and should have saved some for when the 6 months is up. I’d be giving them a leaving date and sticking to it.

This is what I did with mine, they decided to go home as they could not be bothered to find somewhere or a new host and didn’t want to pay rent either. I cannot abide that attitude to be honest from anyone.

EmeraldShamrock1 · 21/10/2022 07:58

I think the idea that it's a cultural difference that's preventing Ukrainians from being independent is deeply patronising in its own right.
100%.
My experience over the years has shown me that EE DC are far more resilient and independent in comparison to English/Irish DC.

mistermagpie · 21/10/2022 08:02

"Your partner is a bit misinformed, ‘local connection’ is still very much part of homeless legislation/assessments in Scotland, although it is being abolished on 29 November 2022."

I was just repeating what he told me, he works in homelessness in Scotland. He's not here to ask right now but I've just had a quick google and it seems local connection does exist, however Shelter Scotland say the following, which suggests that they (the Ukrainians) would be accommodated anyways while their circumstances were looked into and the fact that they have work in the area would suffice as a 'local connection'.

Perhaps my DH meant that in practice local connection doesn't matter here (where he works) because they would be accommodated anyway. I was typing while he talked!

If you present as homeless at any council, they must give you temporary accommodation while they look into your circumstances. You should never be told to apply elsewhere. 

If the council believes you are homeless and eligible for help, they can then check if you have a 'local connection' to the area where you made your homeless application. 

If they do not think you have a connection, they may refer you to an area where you do — provided you are not at risk there. If you do not want to be sent to another area, explain the reasons why when you make your homeless applicationn_.
When deciding whether you have a local connection with the area, the council has to look at whether you or anyone in your household:
has lived in the area (and for how long)
has family connections in the area
works in the area
has a connection with the area for another reason

mistermagpie · 21/10/2022 08:03

Sorry the formatting went al askew there!

EmeraldShamrock1 · 21/10/2022 08:04

@Banjaxx I'm not sure.
It's pushing rental property prices through the roof.

BeetFeet · 21/10/2022 08:05

berksandbeyond · 21/10/2022 07:14

Well this is why it was idiotic for people to take these families in, in the first place.

What an entirely predictable situation but everyone wanted to be a hero huh?

Oh have a word with yourself. What am absolute twatty thing to say.

Worthyornot · 21/10/2022 08:11

BeetFeet · 21/10/2022 08:05

Oh have a word with yourself. What am absolute twatty thing to say.

I don't think it was idiotic. People didn't think this through, all the ways it could go wrong.

BeetFeet · 21/10/2022 08:21

@Worthyornot

I can assure you people did think it through. Unless you have become a host you won't know.

A guest just didn't turn up on your doorstep overnight. Long conversations and relationships were forged before a prospective guest even left Ukraine. Some visas took months to be approved, so contact between hosts and guests was for a long time. There was no help from the government to connect hosts and guests, it was all based on people being kind, helpful, trusting and charitable. Where the poster suggests it was idiotic really pisses me off.

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2022 08:30

Worthyornot · 21/10/2022 08:11

I don't think it was idiotic. People didn't think this through, all the ways it could go wrong.

Actually I think a lot did and still took the risk.

Why?

Because they had to weigh up whether it was more important to give the benefit of the doubt and help someone who was at risk from the war or take on the risk of someone difficult.

They assessed that the priority was safety of people. And figured if it went wrong they'd have to deal with it even if that meant kicking their guests out making them homeless. The issue is that they are good people who really don't want to have to do the latter even if it's in the best interests of BOTH parties.

Being homeless in the uk they felt was preferable to being in Ukraine potentially under fire or occupation. I don't think that's naive or stupid or ill thought through.

Kendodd · 21/10/2022 08:50

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2022 08:30

Actually I think a lot did and still took the risk.

Why?

Because they had to weigh up whether it was more important to give the benefit of the doubt and help someone who was at risk from the war or take on the risk of someone difficult.

They assessed that the priority was safety of people. And figured if it went wrong they'd have to deal with it even if that meant kicking their guests out making them homeless. The issue is that they are good people who really don't want to have to do the latter even if it's in the best interests of BOTH parties.

Being homeless in the uk they felt was preferable to being in Ukraine potentially under fire or occupation. I don't think that's naive or stupid or ill thought through.

This was my experience. People basically advertised themselves on Facebook looking for a place to go. People in Europe had their arms wide open for Ukrainian people, it took a leap of faith on both sides. I had long conversations with my guest (including when air raid sirens were going off in the background) . I said she could stay with me for six months then we'd see where we are about longer. I was very honest about life in the UK (not sure she really believed me though) I explained that it was easy to get a job, but also what those jobs would be, I also explained how difficult housing is and that she would need to get a job ASAP and save as much as she could for this. I feel I kept my side of the bargain, her, less so. Do I have any regrets though? Actually, no. Her kid was being bombed and isn't now. That's the most important thing to me.

Kendodd · 21/10/2022 09:06

This reply has been deleted

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BeetFeet · 21/10/2022 09:08

@Kendodd

Thank you and for taking the risk. Nobody became a host without taking risks. It doesn't make it idiotic does it?

For what it's worth, my guest came in July. She never even wanted to leave but she got frightened with the rumours that females would be mobilised. She calls her family everyday who are still in Kharkiv and their first conversation is 'is it quiet?'

Anyway. She has two jobs, is hardworking, intelligent, respectful and grateful to feel safe. Me and my Husband think a lot of her, she is part of our family now. We have offered her a home for as long as she wants to be here.

BeetFeet · 21/10/2022 09:14

The way guests connected with hosts through social media was a worrying time, it was like Tinder for refugees. Really awkward and risky. We were promised 'phase 2' by the Homes for Ukraine scheme but that never materialised. If I remember rightly phase 2 suggested it would create ways to connect hosts and guests. It eventually suggested on the Gov website that's groups on social media would be the way to connect. So instead, hundreds of FB groups were created. Some have been extremely successful, creating local support hubs which help to connect guests and hosts. I'm not sure how else we would have connected.

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2022 09:26

That largely matches what I've heard from many hosts.

They were open and honest that life in the uk was harsh, tough and expensive and that there would be work available but limited to certain things. Yet this often wasn't taken on board by guests or just plainly ignored because they just wanted to come to the uk.

I think quite a few had very unrealistic views of the uk and thats where many problems have arisen. Not necessarily with the hosts themselves who were aware of these issues and explicitly warned that life here could be tough.

In this narrative of hosts being naive and ill informed why are ukrainians infantilised as not having this ability to consider the cultural differences, availability of work and housing too? Its dead interesting to see this thrown at hosts by those who decided not to host. Its almost like confirmation bias to justify why they themselves haven't done more, particularly if they do have the means.

Either the Ukrainians are running for their lives, in which case hosts were right to throw caution to the wind to help or their guests are equally part of this equation about whether coming to the UK was a good idea for them.

Yes Ukrainian refugees are vulnerable and the can be exploited. Yes they face all sorts of barriers and obstacles. But they also have had a lot more opportunities and support than many who have come to the uk for all manner of reasons and have made it work for themselves. Because they are adults and they haven't had the luxury of being able to just stay on benefits living in someone else's house. We are in danger of encouraging hosts to enable dependant behaviour and thats not right either.

Fundamentally people have to be willing to help themselves too or its a breakdown of the unwritten social contract between hosts and guests.

I think guests do have sympathy for single women with young child more than others who have come here and will give a little bit more but even then there are limits to that if alternatives are available but not taken up.

Yes they may be traumatised but the reality is they'd have to get on with things despite the trauma if they'd stayed in Ukraine too. The idea that hosts should somehow take on the economic, emotional and practical strain because of someone else's trauma is privileged fantasy land nonsense that doesn't exist in refugee camps or many areas of the world affected by conflict.

Its harsh and its cold but its also something that we can't do a lot about. That is part of the awfulness of trauma.

A Ukrainian who doesn't get a job, doesn't work towards getting a house and doesn't try and get involved is going to be in a far worse position further down the line than those who do it. A host is almost being negligent in not encouraging it and arguably enabling dependancy isn't in the best interests of their guest.

If the war continues for longer than anticipated, then its going to make it miles harder for those Ukrainians to have a long term future here. The reality is we hope its a short war, but even if its not, its going to be extremely difficult to go back to Ukraine for a while for many because of the housing situation. If you've come here, you need to fully commit to living here for 3 years at this point with how the situation looks in Ukraine. Or just go back and survive as best you can. Those are your choices. You can't expect to live off a host who offered shelter for 6 months for 3 years. Ukrainians need to take that responsibility on. That's not for hosts to continue to plan their guests lives into the medium term emotionally, financially or otherwise in practical terms.

And I think this does mean that some hosts will have to be 'cold hearted' about this when they by nature and the very definition of hosting goes completely counter to their natural deposition.

To use an example: you don't do someone a favour by enabling them to have massive gaps in their CV.

woodhill · 21/10/2022 11:43

NameChangeForARaisin · 20/10/2022 23:30

Our neighbour has Ukraine refugees staying, over summer they were offerred the use of her parents home for 2 weeks in a seaside village, so they could have a little holiday. They enjoyed this so much that when the parents returned from their holiday, they refused to leave.
They said that their original hosts home was far too small and just decided that they were going to continue living there. They'd even approached the local school about places for their children.

Some people take liberties OP. You have done all you can.

That is just terrible.

Did the situation get resolved?

eldora · 21/10/2022 11:56

NameChangeForARaisin · 20/10/2022 23:30

Our neighbour has Ukraine refugees staying, over summer they were offerred the use of her parents home for 2 weeks in a seaside village, so they could have a little holiday. They enjoyed this so much that when the parents returned from their holiday, they refused to leave.
They said that their original hosts home was far too small and just decided that they were going to continue living there. They'd even approached the local school about places for their children.

Some people take liberties OP. You have done all you can.

Yes, please tell us what happened! Shock

razzbo · 21/10/2022 12:33

In case anyone is interested in the outcome of this, or in case anyone else goes through the same thing... I have just had a live chat with Shelter Scotland who were amazing. (Thank you to whoever suggested it.) They said that the council were definitely trying to fob me off and that if anyone - ANYONE - no matter where they have been living - presents as homeless then they should be put into emergency accommodation that same day and for up to 28 days while their case is assessed. They quoted some law that says they must be looked after and cannot be turned away.

They also gave me a number to phone to complain about the council's treatment of me yesterday. And said they would be advocates if the council turned my guests away, and that they could provide an interpreter too. Oh wow I am so much happier than yesterday. Thank you all for your support and the general consensus that they need to look after themselves now, which is what I needed to hear.

OP posts:
ChaosDemon · 21/10/2022 12:35

razzbo · 21/10/2022 12:33

In case anyone is interested in the outcome of this, or in case anyone else goes through the same thing... I have just had a live chat with Shelter Scotland who were amazing. (Thank you to whoever suggested it.) They said that the council were definitely trying to fob me off and that if anyone - ANYONE - no matter where they have been living - presents as homeless then they should be put into emergency accommodation that same day and for up to 28 days while their case is assessed. They quoted some law that says they must be looked after and cannot be turned away.

They also gave me a number to phone to complain about the council's treatment of me yesterday. And said they would be advocates if the council turned my guests away, and that they could provide an interpreter too. Oh wow I am so much happier than yesterday. Thank you all for your support and the general consensus that they need to look after themselves now, which is what I needed to hear.

That's a fantastic outcome, and good to know Shelter will have your back if they try it on!

saraclara · 21/10/2022 12:48

That's fantastic@razzbo ! I'm so glad that you got the right help, and that you should soon have your house to yourself.

dollytot · 21/10/2022 13:02

razzbo · 21/10/2022 12:33

In case anyone is interested in the outcome of this, or in case anyone else goes through the same thing... I have just had a live chat with Shelter Scotland who were amazing. (Thank you to whoever suggested it.) They said that the council were definitely trying to fob me off and that if anyone - ANYONE - no matter where they have been living - presents as homeless then they should be put into emergency accommodation that same day and for up to 28 days while their case is assessed. They quoted some law that says they must be looked after and cannot be turned away.

They also gave me a number to phone to complain about the council's treatment of me yesterday. And said they would be advocates if the council turned my guests away, and that they could provide an interpreter too. Oh wow I am so much happier than yesterday. Thank you all for your support and the general consensus that they need to look after themselves now, which is what I needed to hear.

That is good news OP. I'm glad to hear you will get your life back but please let this be a lesson. I wrote a very lost post, but decided against it because I'll probably get flamed for it.

I'll say this instead. Sometimes as a country we need to step back and look at the bigger picture. My mum is exactly the same as you - heart of gold and has taken in a Ukrainian lady and her son and provided them with everything. In my view, they have taken the absolute piss, and I believe the woman is trying to manipulate my mum. Sometimes we need to use our head instead of our heart and look at what is going on.

Charity starts a home as they say and it's time to start looking after our own.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 21/10/2022 14:20

Good news on the face of it OP, but I douubt your guests will care what Shelter have to ssay so you're still likely to have the unpleasantness of telling them they have to leave

Personally I'd do it sooner rather than later so you can put it behind you, knowing you did your very best

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