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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

This is going to offend some people, but...

108 replies

chandaliere · 11/10/2022 08:36

To think that people who have left their country of birth and possibly family behind, to make a better life for themselves in a different place and have made a success of it, deserve a lot of respect ?

I think it takes a lot to make something of yourself elsewhere and can't help but have masses of respect for people who've managed to do that.

OP posts:
FourTeaFallOut · 11/10/2022 10:06

FourTeaFallOut · 11/10/2022 10:01

Well yes. My point was only alongside the other which laid out the -presumed- qualities of migrants which highlighted veneered personality qualities.

But yes, a completely different migrant is one who is moves on the sheer will to survive alone. The bulk of my family shifted to England in the same famine migration, chirpy they were not.

Veneered - Revered! I have a head cold which is scrambling my brain, and letters!

bingbummy · 11/10/2022 10:18

Yeah screw your family you leave behind, let them fend for themselves.

oakleaffy · 11/10/2022 10:20

PurpleIsTheNewPink · 11/10/2022 09:32

Thank you girlmom. I appreciate that. It happened a long time ago. ( When I was a child visiting my uncle who had moved to the UK with his family). I'd never experienced that level of aggression before or since so it's left quite an impression. I'll never forget how ashamed I felt of myself and my family.

That must have been really unpleasant, and frightening for a child, and of course deeply unpleasant for an adult to experience as well {Your Uncle and his family at that time probably suffered the same nasty comments}.

I wonder if these gobby men {Who are the ones who should feel ashamed} would have the same attitude if their Surgeon or Specialist was from India or Pakistan?

Hopefully things have got a lot better now.

Rosesandstars · 11/10/2022 10:36

They are brave and courageous - yes. ,
Is it always best to leave your family behind in order to earn more money? no, not always, sometimes it takes more bravery and is better for yourself and family to stay!.
Are all migrants more courageous than literally anyone else? No.

Thepeopleversuswork · 11/10/2022 10:42

Totally agree and I would scratch my head at anyone who found this remotely offensive.

I have known a few people who have migrated here from poorer countries in search of a better life and its bloody hard. Relentlessly hard and isolating, even if things go your way, which is far from a given. The prejudice, the constant feeling of being an outsider, the way the odds are stacked against you in terms of employment, the fact you have to work four times as hard as a native person to be taken seriously at a job when you do get one. It never ends.

People who pull it off deserve massive respect IMHO.

echt · 11/10/2022 10:44

Dotjones · 11/10/2022 08:50

I don't find it offensive but I think it's wrong. It takes greater courage to remain where you're born and make the place better rather than take the easy option of running away to a better country.

Is that what you'd say to asylum seekers?

j712adrian · 11/10/2022 10:46

Yes.

You'll find the people who object to it also hate people who have worked abroad.

OneTC · 11/10/2022 10:53

Discovereads · 11/10/2022 09:08

I mean it’s all migration innit? Even Brits going to Australia.
The OP didn’t specify refugees only. Literally said “anyone”

Most immigration/emigration you don’t have nothing. It costs a lot to move countries what with visas, moving your furniture & stuff, probably a break in employment, etc.

So I don’t see how the comment was tone deaf unless you’re illogically applying it to refugees…..

The stay there and make your country a better place comment is certainly hinting at being a refugee. Runs with people's perceptions that many refugees from war torn countries are fighting age men

OneTC · 11/10/2022 10:56

Sorry I've just reread what you wrote 🤦

Need coffee

OneTC · 11/10/2022 10:57

No I've just re-re-read and take retract that retraction.

Really need coffee

WhileMyGuitarGentlyWeeps · 11/10/2022 10:58

oakleaffy · 11/10/2022 09:48

I own part of a house there, but my loved ones are here, but it's a definite consideration.

😂

CulturePigeon · 11/10/2022 10:58

Yes, of course. Many immigrants 'sacrificed' their own aspirations to give their children the best start in a new country. Our newsagents were a couple who had been chucked out of Uganda by Idi Amin and had basically had to get on a plane with a small suitcase, leaving everything behind. They were university lecturers in Uganda but had to settle for running a 'shop that never closes' in the UK. The man was always smiley, but I think his wife was understandably resentful, and could be grumpy - and who could blame her?

Two daughters went to a highly-academic school and have moved successfully into well-paid professions.

But if you're asking about illegal immigrants..not so sure. It depends! I'm all for sensible immigration - we need skilled people and we're in trouble because they're in short supply due to various policies. I don't think illegal, uncontrolled immigration is ever good news, though. Nothing to do with racism and totally to do with numbers and planning provision for the future.

Discovereads · 11/10/2022 11:07

makingmiracles · 11/10/2022 09:34

Oh absolutely. Especially when the home office are so inept that they cause you to lose your property and employment!

my friends came from Portugal, they applied in April 22, she was given pre settled status quite quick as her mum was here, he is still waiting 7 months on.
they were in employment within a week of being here and had just found a house to rent, but the share code didn’t work. They’ve had hours and hours of calls with the home office, but seem to go round in circles, no one knows how to resolve it, consequently they’ve now lost the house and it’s unclear wether he can still work atm too.

so yes, courageous if your coming to the uk, as you may be left with no accommodation and jobless through no fault of your own.

When you have an outstanding application with the Home Office, you can’t get a share code. You give your 16 digit application ref #1212-0001 to the landlord and they can make the request to confirm your right to rent using the following e-form:

eforms.homeoffice.gov.uk/outreach/lcs-application.ofml

Discovereads · 11/10/2022 11:12

OneTC · 11/10/2022 10:53

The stay there and make your country a better place comment is certainly hinting at being a refugee. Runs with people's perceptions that many refugees from war torn countries are fighting age men

I don’t agree, otherwise my DH is a refugee from the US because he didn’t stay behind to vote Trump out, fix gun crime, abortion laws, terrible education system, lack of healthcare, GMOs in food, forest fires, etc etc.

But, nah,he’s not a refugee.

RincewindsHat · 11/10/2022 11:18

Dotjones · 11/10/2022 08:50

I don't find it offensive but I think it's wrong. It takes greater courage to remain where you're born and make the place better rather than take the easy option of running away to a better country.

Greater courage to remain where you're born? Easy option?

Do you know what it means to flee a war-torn country, leaving behind everything and everyone you've ever known to travel through multiple countries in any way you can because "staying where you were born" means almost certain death and deprivation?

What if you're born in the Gaza Strip and staying where you were born means no opportunity to do anything other than dodge missiles and rely on international aid like 80% of the population does because there's really no other choice?

What if you're born in North Korea, a country with so little that the concept of 'rubbish' is completely alien because everything has to be used for something and nothing is ever thrown away (oh, and you're ruled over by a despot who will kill you and your family if you put so much as a toe out of line)?

What if you're born in Ukraine and your home was just bombed by Putin and you have nothing and you want to do something to save your childrens' lives?

There's no "easy" option when it comes to escaping war or dictatorships or bombs or famine or corrupt leadership or poverty. Genuinely confused as to how there are people in this country who just don't understand what life is like for those in less fortunate circumstances around the world, it's not like it's not all over the media all the time.

whumpthereitis · 11/10/2022 11:20

Dotjones · 11/10/2022 08:50

I don't find it offensive but I think it's wrong. It takes greater courage to remain where you're born and make the place better rather than take the easy option of running away to a better country.

Apart from the obvious issues with that statement, that rather presumes a greater attachment to any one landmass that would be enough to keep you there.

————————-

My parents emigrated, and I did again. In the UK temporarily on a contract, and will then be moving back to the second country upon completion of that. I obviously have the personality type that enables me to it without fuss, but I don’t consider myself superior at all. In some countries/cultures it’s more normal to leave, and not considered any great feat.

I’ve never ‘grieved’ not staying in one place. I don’t believe it would suit me.

Kabalagala · 11/10/2022 11:45

I've been a migrant abroad. Now my husband is a migrant here in the UK. I think it's incredibly brave whatever the motivations or direction of migration.

MRSE20 · 11/10/2022 12:11

I think that everyone is going to have their own opinions on this but the truth is unless they have been in that persons shoes then they do not really have the right to judge. I think it is very easy to comment on someone’s reason of doing something when they haven’t been in that position and I think this stands for everything in life. It is always easier to have a quick opinion on something that you’ve never had to actually go through. I am pretty sure that the people who have opinions would change their mind if the shoe was on the other foot

Blocked · 11/10/2022 12:25

maddy68 · 11/10/2022 09:18

I moved away from the UK.
I don't think anyone really should have an opinion on my choices or reasons for doing it.

I don't expect praise or vitriol

It's just another life decision I made Along with having children , buying a house, going to uni etc

Yeah. Weird that anyone is supposed to care.

GonnaGetGoingReturns · 11/10/2022 12:33

MRSE20 · 11/10/2022 12:11

I think that everyone is going to have their own opinions on this but the truth is unless they have been in that persons shoes then they do not really have the right to judge. I think it is very easy to comment on someone’s reason of doing something when they haven’t been in that position and I think this stands for everything in life. It is always easier to have a quick opinion on something that you’ve never had to actually go through. I am pretty sure that the people who have opinions would change their mind if the shoe was on the other foot

So you're not allowed to have an opinion on this unless you've been in that person's shoes?

I went on a short break to see my aunt who lives on the Kent coast the other day. I'd heard a couple of people in a local bar complaining about the immigrants/migrants who travel across the English channel in a dinghy, they thought the resources given by RNLI, if there had been other emergencies, then they're helping migrants?

Also, when you have more migrants living in one area then this increases pressure on doctors surgeries, schools etc.

Clarinet1 · 11/10/2022 13:38

I think what this thread is establishing is the emigration is done for all sorts of reasons - from those fleeing war in Ukraine or
the children on the Kindertransport in the Second World War to those who believe they can simply have a better economic future in another country or fancy living on the Costas or in Florida for a bit. All of them have their challenges.

Also I don’t think anyone has mentioned, although they may not
be there to provide practical assistance to families, a lot
of immigrants from developing countries do have the major aim of sending money back.

On the other hand, if you take someone like Gandhi, he was an educated man and a lawyer who had spent time in the UK as a young man. I don’t know what the formalities would have been in those days but I think it’s quite likely he could have stayed here and had very comfortable career and family life. Instead he chose to go back to India and campaign for independence and challenge the caste system so surely there is also something to be said for the approach of staying in one’s own country.

InCheesusWeTrust · 11/10/2022 13:52

I came for the language, stayed for the queuing.😂

Just to correct some, it doesn't, well didn't, require great deal of money within EU. Lots of people moved to experience something new, liked it and stayed. Hence why lots of us are now looking to move again ...

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 11/10/2022 13:55

Dotjones · 11/10/2022 08:50

I don't find it offensive but I think it's wrong. It takes greater courage to remain where you're born and make the place better rather than take the easy option of running away to a better country.

I find this view almost endearingly naive. What, on their own, would one person or individual family unit be expected to do to make a whole country 'better?'

We receive a vote approximately once every five years. Some countries don't even accord that particular privilege. Sometimes we can protest, making the strength of public feeling absolutely clear. To what end? There was still a war in Iraq, no party having provided any credible opposition, and like idiots we immediately endorsed Blair's position by voting Labour in again at the next general election.

In a democracy the majority vote counts so if our compatriots happen to do mad, unfathomable things like vote in a party who line the coffers of the rich whilst driving public services through the floor, or even worse, appeasing their backbenchers with an ill-informed and disastrous Brexit referendum which went haywire when the country unfathomably didn't deliver the result they expected - then again, what is one individual expected to do?

There was a whole thread a few weeks ago posted on by British people in despair at the state of the country, and who were seriously looking into emigrating. Educated, smart, professional people: precisely the kind of people this country cannot afford to lose. And whilst there may be no such place as Utopia, there are opportunities to make good elsewhere if we wish. I wouldn't want these closed off to me (Brexit's made a great job of that in Europe; if you voted for it thanks for nothing on behalf of me and my DC), and equally don't see why they should be closed off for immigration in the other direction. My decision is about what's best for me and my family. If the UK is going to do stupid things like deliver a 'YES' Brexit vote, I don't consider it my personal responsibility to make that better.

Respect and admiration don't really come into it. Sometimes necessity, or the chance of better opportunities elsewhere, do.

VoiceOfCommonSense · 11/10/2022 15:18

This reply has been deleted

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Happylittlethoughts · 11/10/2022 15:38

Jesus, you don't have a lot to think about fo you?
Maybe a wee hobby