To think that if you have time to be on MN moaning about your

[Amethyst8]

Cleaner then you probably have time to be doing your cleaning yourself. Find myself a bit bewildered by the complaints about cleaners on here. Not really a problem in the the true sense of the word IMO. Is your purse also too small for your £50s and are your diamond shoes too tight? (thank you Chandler! )

REFUSE to feel guilty for needing/wanting domestic help

if you have time to moan about almost anything you have time to do something about it yourself - we all decide what sort of help we need whether it is getting the car repaired, decorating the house, having the windows cleaned, the garden maintained, getting a filling at the dentist, having the laundry ironed, buying ready made bread that you could make yourself, buying vegetables you could grow yourself - buying any prepared food that it is possible and so much cheaper to make yourself from frozen potato products to a chicken on a polystyrene tray covered in clingfilm.

LOL amethyst, I think you'll find I was probably one saying that it was low to pick up on grammar.

What I am saying, if you actually read my posts properly is that you are not standing up for cleaners, how can saying that someone shouldnt complain that their cleaner hasnt done their job properly be standing up for them??

i dont have lots of children i have three...but they are all old eniough to be bossy and argue back and borrow money and demand things of me and tell me how to run my life...

i think i am just inexplicably happy at the mo

Twiglett you dare devil!

twiglett what sort of wine do you like?

A potato in your wine rack???
I think I've missed a thread here.

or d) is having a sexual fantasy involving chandler

LOL

I think Amethyst's line has been quite consistent throughout. She's uncomfortable with some of the threads where cleaners are being discussed and criticized.

For what it's worth, I occasionally find some of the comments on those threads irritating as well. Not all of them, but some of the them. I guess it's the tone, rather than the content.

I'm also a cleaner, but I tend to stick to bachelors and businesses. I wouldn't like to clean for another woman, unless she was resolutely out whenever I was in!!

I think Amethyst is doing what she is complaining about. Going on to MN to have a rant about things that are not really that important, which we all do, but don't then post threads moaning about it.

I have a wonderful cleaner who is so great has just started to mind kids as well.

I think someone claiming to have done a certain number of hours, then leaving early is tantamount to theft, and shows complete lack of respect for their employer.

But Desi, if you hadn't completed the cleaning and left 20 minutes early, then surely you'd expect to be complained about?

Maybe MN should introduce a colour coded system for threads - red for national security, orange for vaguely important, and blue for silly vexatious issues?

I wouldn't leave twenty minutes early, VS. If I was paid for two hours, I'd work two hours.

I'm not talking specifics, here.

And sprogger, I haven't a clue what you're talking about

why are women so much more sexist than your average man?

vacua lol that is a bit sexist

In my 42 years of wandering this planet, I have yet to find an average man ..

So, Vacua, who's being sexist and why?

just don't subscribe to the idea that cleaning is for women to do - if you can't afford a cleaner and you are a single parent then get the children to help out, if you are married and you have opted for the housework to be your career then lovely for you - every bit as entitled to moan about it as the rest of us moan about work outside the home, if you are married and working it ought to be shared 50 50 surely?

there is more than a bit of sexism in this thread about resenting women who opt to have a cleaner - even though it is a very widespread way of doing things

if you're out at work all day why would you prefer to spend time cleaning instead of being with your children or just chilling out?

Desi, it's V.

it's implied into lots of posts on this thread, unless am mistaking 'income envy' for sexism - but was it you desiderata who felt that cleaning for men was ok but for women 'why can't they do it themselves?' unless am misunderstanding due to my laziness about reading thread as whole

anyway am absolutely rubbish at cleaning, think it is actually a fairly skilled job if it is to be done within a reasonable time and done well. value cleaners immensely and pay well over minimum wage when can find one. absolutely do not see any difference between engaging a lawyer to help sort out legal problems and engaging a cleaner to sort out my foetid house - it's a service, bet huge number of us are employed in some sort of service industry or other

opening post on this thread is absolutely ridiculous, if you applied that sort of logic to every aspect of your life there would not be enough hours in the day for all the things that have to be done and one would have to be skilled in huge variety of roles

Actually I just wanted an opportunity to use the "your wallet is too small for your 50's and your diamond shoes are too tight" quote - my all time favourite from friends .

Of course I am not saying that you cannot tell your cleaner that you have a problem with her work but lets face it its not a great job is it cleaning your toilet? Those of you that can pay someone else to do it for you do. If your cleaner is a decent person she would probably feel like crap to know that you - her employer are conducting her work evaluation on Mumsnet, without her even being present. As I said before I am sure you working mums would be none too happy if your boss logged on to discuss your mistakes and failings on the relevant message board in front of 1000's. I dont know a lot about employment law but I am sure that sort of thing would not sit too well with a tribunal now would it? Why are cleaners any less deserving of employment rights and respect than any other employee irrespective of how they do their work? Can those of you who have posted about your cleaners honestly all say that you had genuine concerns about how to deal with them and your employment of them or that there was quite a large element of taking the p*ss out of someone who does not know you are doing it and whom you consider to be lesser than yourself in some way?

Perhaps I should have labelled my original post "If you have enough time to be abusing your cleaners employment rights on Mumsnet then you probably have enough time to do your cleaning yourself" .

Vacua, I'd prefer to clean for a bachelor because they pay more. It's really that simple!

Similarly, I prefer to clean for businesses. I would feel uncomfortable cleaning around another woman who was in the house. I doubt that I'm alone in that. There are plenty of women who don't like the idea of cleaners coming in when they're around, either, for various reasons.

You can call is sexist, if you like. I don't tend to get hung up on 'ists' and 'isms.'

Nor do I don't find the OP 'ridiculous.' I wouldn't have started the thread, personally, but I think I understand where it comes from. The relationship between a woman and her cleaner is slightly different than the standard employer/employee relationship. There are nuances/private guilts/niggling feelings of unwanted superiority/inferiority that makes it all a bit of a minefield.

So, I think when it comes to threads about cleaners, it is occasionally the tone and not the content that I feel uncomfortable with. Most MNers are gracious enough to acknowledge the difficulties, but some can come across as domestic martinets.

Desiderata - thank you for saying some of what I was trying to but you have managed it a little more graciously than I did.