To think that a five year old boy should not be permanently excluded from school?

[whatatanker]

My son has been threatened with permanent exclusion today.

His behaviour is poor, but I have honestly tried so many things - have an older son, who is absolutely delightful and enjoys school.

He is 5 weeks into school in his reception year. He’s emotionally immature and struggles to sit still and has started hurting others in the classroom.

Should this really be happening?

The problem isn't with the school. No child should suffer and no teacher gets paid enough to be pelted with chairs or whatever else. As a teacher I've been there - had my finger badly cut with scissors, almost had my hair cut by a child, been hit with desks, chairs, feet, fists and everything else. Had my windows smashed and class turned upside down. Been signed off with PTSD. It's no good.

The system is broken, none of the provisions are well resourced enough for the level of need that exists and as a result everyone is suffering.

Most behaviour units closed, meaning children with behavioural issues moved to the communication units. So the children with communication issues have been pushed to mainstream where they're not being well supported. And the staff everywhere are fried.

I think yes, if other children are being hurt in any way, exclusion is a good option from the schools point of view. However the fact there are so few places where children like your DCs needs can be met is not ok. And it will likely be a difficult road for you.

If I was you I'd contact your local MP or council rep, and cc the head of education for whatever council area you are in on the emails. Explain the situation, quote some local policies and laws about education provision, and ask what their plan is. It's the most effective way of getting things done. Your child is entitled to full time education and I don't think they are legally able to exclude him without an alternative placement (I could be wrong there, I know that rule applies where I am).

Its a very difficult grey area for staff when a child is violent towards other children, technically they can't lay hands on to stop them, but morally they need to do something. It's safer for everyone involved if your DC (especially as he gets older) is in a setting with less potential triggers.

This

Nonsense. This is exactly why too many exclusions happen. It is not in the best interest of the child, it's so the school can dump them whilst pretending to do them a favour.

Surely if the services being suggested are rubbish - would you want your child in an environment where he is miserable and hurting others?
Maybe accompany him to school and sit with him during lessons?
Or keep him at home where he is safe and happy until a suitable placement is available?

Hopefully something can be done. My son’s class also has a higher than average SEN intake but now they’re in y2 and everybody seems to finally have the correct support in place, my son and another child both have EHCPs with full-time 1-to-1s and other children have part-time 1-to-1, things are much much easier on everyone as a whole even whilst we wait for a place to come up at a specialist school. It sounds as though this boy needs similar help and support in place, highly unusual to be offered a specialist school place yet no extra help or 1-to-1 at school. Hopefully for everybody’s sake they can sort the situation out.

Not acceptable at all. All avenues should be exhausted before PE.

Have they sought outside support? Local authority services, Ed psych assessment, applied for an EHC needs assessment? Doesn't sound like it.

I would suggest applying for an EHC needs assessment yourself. If they say no (which they often do to make people go away) appeal to tribunal. Look at the IPSEA website for advice.

i haven’t RTFT and it sounds like you’ve had some good advice. I am a chair of governors and also an independent review panel member for permanent exclusions, (which is the review that happens after a permanent exclusion has been upheld by governors and a parent wants to appeal) and happy to help via PM if you need any more assistance.

As already explained to you, EHE isn’t a good idea. Its not appropriate for parents to provide 1:1 either.

It's better that nothing if there's no provision. She knows him better so she can do the 1:1.

No, it’s not. It will also mean appropriate support will take longer to be put in place.

Was going to say exactly this.

School are simply reacting to his behaviour, they are not supporting him in any way to prevent it happening.
They can give him support, removal of playtime and peers will cause further distress for your son and that will cause further behaviour. They need to try and work out WHY this is happening , all behaviour is communication and you seem to have a very lost /struggling little boy. He needs support not consequences.

The ideology of putting as many SEN children in mainstream schools as possible is wrong. One size does not fit all children. One of my friends ds has been in mainstream school since YR, he is ASD & at least 2 years behind in his learning capabilities in everything except sport, he got a place at the local comprehensive on the basis that there was a learning centre for dc with SEN that they could access for subjects they needed & then attend mainstream lessons for other subjects. This centre was closed down as the funding was withdrawn, my friend's ds hasn't been to school for nearly 2 terms with school's blessing, as his mum is fighting for him to get a place at a small SEN centre with small inclusive classes the local school have washed their hands of him. He is well behaved, well mannered, goes to scouts & loves sport but school can't be bothered with him.

Well no....it's not my child🤷🏻‍♀️

Tbh on that basis she will struggle getting a place in a special school they won't see two years behind as that bad and if he has no behavioral problems ,then the LEA w8ll argue that mainstream is the best setting for him ,I absolutely agree that mainstream isn't always the answer my own child has always been in a special school but he has signicant and complex disabilities, there are schools that are purely for children with autism with no additional learning disabilities but these cost £££££,s and LEA,s will be reluctant to fund them.

No school worth it's salt would let a parent 1:1 for their own child, it is a huge conflict of interest and would create more problems than it solves. She would also be expected to have at least some TA training too, especially if working in EYFS.

It's sometimes hard to get experienced 1-to-1s for £10 an hour so schools I have worked in employ mums who want to get a foot in the school. The only experience they have is being a parent. So at least the op could pre-empt in a lot of the situations from day 1 but agree that the school might think problem solved and not be as pro-active in finding a better solution.

I agree.

Full time school placement at a special school in my area is costed at £250,000 a year and I was told this figure while pushing for a place for my DC. You need an EHCP and for it to be accepted as your named school in order to obtain a place. LA will always argue for mainstream. One of my DC is at a specialist placement within a mainstream school, absolutely the best place for them, but I had to take the LA to tribunal three times to get it (once to obtain an EHCP, again to appeal the EHCP content which had ignored various reports, and a third time to contest their decision to reject the school we named despite a letter from its headteacher saying DC should have a place).

Everyone suggesting "well he needs to go to a special school" seems to think you can just rock up at the gates and get a place. It takes years, you need evidence to support the placement, and there aren't enough spaces for the children who are already assessed as needing them so why would an unassessed, undiagnosed child leap to the top of the placement list?

Thank you for the information.

Just to confirm, though, he is not hurting teachers. He does not throw chairs. He does not smash windows or anything like that.

He sits quietly during phonics and answers questions when asked. He’s polite and will say good morning and please and thank you constantly to staff. He’s very kind and has been cuddling a child who hurt her knee in the playground this week.

BUT he has bitten a child once and is too boisterous around other children. He finds it hard to share toys and his emotions come out as frustration and anger.

In the schools where I've worked parent volunteers are not allowed to work in the same class/area as their DC because of the conflict of interest and the problems it creates go against the best interests of the child.

You need to ask…..Are the school keeping an ABC diary so they can keep track of triggers, incidents and consequences? Have they made a request for behaviour support to come in to offer them support and strategies to support him and to also assess him? Has he been placed on the ALN register, even under monitor for the time being? Is there availability with the Ed Psych to come in and observe him? Have they asked the school nurse for any referrals? Have you asked the GP for a referral?

In our school this isn’t something that a child would be excluded for unless something major is happening that you haven’t been made aware of, it took for me to be punched for a child to be excluded for 2 days and on their return was given a 1-1 and all the additional support I’d been asking for for months!

Jeez if its a one off the school are massively jumping the gun! He's only young and still adjusting to a massive change, that's madness to consider permenant exclusion for something that's not a daily occurrence.
Nah don't let them away with that, if it was a constant behaviour and other children were suffering daily that's different, but even the most relaxed pupils have meltdown days.
Get them to keep a diary every day of every incident, even if it's just minor, including times and possible triggers. Once you've done that for a few weeks you might see patterns... maybe transitions are hard or lunch times are too long and unstructured or there's too much/not enough free play time. We do daily diaries for all of our kids and it helps notice patterns and celebrate the good as well as address the not so good.

Don't let them reduce his timetable either without arranging different provisions, if we had kids of part time timetables we had to arrange for external groups/playworkers/homeschool teachers/charities to provide the time we weren't offering. It's a hassle for the school but it is his right to full time hours so don't let it go.

(When I say its a hassle for the school I don't mean that in a 'you're being unreasonable and giving them extra work' way, I mean they will try to put it off/say its not possible, but don't let them, you need to be a bit of a ball buster sometimes and its not always easy for parents who are generally laod back. The mums who shout the loudest get the most support!)

OP I have a DD13 who has ASD and ADHD.

You really really need to get him assessed. Go to the GP and get referred.

If you can afford it get it done privately do it, the waiting lists are horrendous. In the meantime you've had great advice from people in education on this thread about how to start taking it forward in the educational setting.

But please get him assessed, if he does have a SEN then it's best to know asap.

If he's summer born one thing to consider is delaying him starting reception til next year while you try to get the support he needs at nursery.

As he isn't compulsory school age, the LA duty isn't cut and dried. Technically I believe they do not have to make alternative provision; do have the power too, so it really depends on the LA.