Why do you think the highest suicide rate of all is of men approaching 50?

[RR64]

Why do you think the highest suicide rate of all is of nen approaching 50?

Surely this needs to be addressed?

Here's another article that I thought was perceptive and accorded with my own experience:
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/jul/09/when-it-comes-to-banter-men-are-in-their-element-but-that-is-no-foundation-for-lasting-friendship

@TomPinch

This is only a small sample study of hospital patients who had engaged in self harm.
There are many big, widespread studies that confirm it's women who are disproportionately affected by depression and have more suicidal tendencies than men. I wonder why you've picked a small sample study to try and prove the opposite?

What do you mean by dangerous. It's not something I've encountered but obviously is based on personal experiences.

@Pumpkinsbeinghitbyfallingapples

Thanks- that's very kind and thoughtful of you. I'll think about it and may send you a PM.

Well, it's dangerous because tears are a sign of vulnerability, or to put it another way, weakness. It's nice to think that crying means sympathy, but in my experience it can also mean mockery, gossip, getting cold-shouldered or bewilderment or disbelief. I do cry from time to time but I keep it very private, even from my DW.

Ok thanks. I don't doubt that's a thing but guess there may be some correlation between proffesions and attitudes.

I've seen mates cry and not just because their team lost at football. All the stuff you've described sounds a bit archaic TBH but then I've openly cried in front of my wife and wouldn't dream of cold shouldering a mate because he cried about something he felt was too much.

It's interesting that today, the peak age group is the 50-54, but 5 years ago it was the 45-49, and 5 years before that it was the 40-44, so it's actually this generation of men that have the most suicides. And it actually mostly goes all the way back to when they became adults.

Also, in the early 80's suicides were a much older persons thing, highest rates were all in pensioner groups. I actually wonder if that's a slight artifact an the coroner/doctors referring have changed and rates are actually higher than reported today in these groups.

But what that change in age groups suggests to me is that ideas of age / hormones / empty nest / parents dying aren't well supported in the data and it's something else.

We're in an era when men being emotional is widely celebrated, including public tears. I wouldn't know what an 'average' man finds acceptable to share now, but I'd say many blokes nowadays (last 20 years) are confident about showing vulnerable emotions and admitting to feeling awful.

Prince Harry acknowledging his struggles, esp. after mother's death
Robbie Williams talking about depression for 10+ yrs
David Cameron's resignation in 2016
Mark Cavendish tearing up on live TV after many a win (2006+) (or loss !!)
Famous rappers getting emotional

I think it depends on your immediate environment. If you're a celebrity, that will include how it's reported in the press (e.g. Prince Harry etc.) I have a sibling who lives in a famously progressive part of England, and I can't imagine the people around him shunning him if he shed a few tears, as that's not the ethos round where he lives. But old habits die a lot harder than people think, and my observation is that a lot of things have changed less than people suppose.

The study I quoted doesn't disprove that women are more likely to be depressed than men.

Sorry, that's unclear. It also doesn't disprove that women are more likely to have suicidal tendencies than men. What it tries to explain is why, despite these facts, more men commit suicide than women.

One group has to have the highest rate, sadly. Is it really markedly higher than all the other demographic groups?

I've known of 4 people committing suicide. None of them close to me. They were all men. Perhaps men are not so good at accepting their failings? Perhaps they don't feel as compelled to keep going for the sake of their children as women do?

Most of those aren't in the 50-54 age group.
Men crying and being emotional is becoming more common but it's mostly in men younger than the demographic people are talking about.

Isolated-feeling disconnected
Not ok to be not ok-never learnt how to have and express emotions
Societal expectations of what it means to be a man. Feels very narrow.
Difficult to make new connections unless you have some hobby
Feelings of failure/worthlessness particularly related to career.
Loss of parents
Decline in health. Onset of new chronic health issues eg diabetes, heart issues, musculoskeletal issues.

Obviously anyone can experience many of these issues anyone can relate to and experience, but in my experience (work in mh) there is often a particular constellation around middle aged men that leads to hopelessness and suicidal ideation and completion.

On the positive side if they access treatment -therapy/medication they often do really well, but too many don't identify the issue or the services aren't there when they need them.

I suspect part of the discrepancy is fewer men actually seek help they either live with the thoughts or act on them.

Yes, that reasonable.

I wonder also if depression is underestimated in men because they are less likely to seek help for that too, however, I would have thought that studies would try to adjust for that.

Also I'm sure that being suicidal isn't simply a matter of just being more than ordinarily depressed, ie, on the same continuum. Surely it's possible to be extremely depressed without attempting suicide.

Don't know if this relates but I think about my late grandfather's and their brothers all of whom left school in their early teens and went into working class occupations. They seemed to do ok, all had stable housing and supported families. While comparisons between generations are tricky they had TVs and modest holidays. They weren't depending on benefits to pay bills.

I'm not saying everything was perfect of course but they seemed to have stable and independent lives.

I think about men of more recent generations in similar occupations and the life chances just don't seem to be the same. Zero hours, insecure housing and benefit top ups. I don't know if this could affect their self worth and stress levels maybe.

^I have this theory that as women get older they get more independent, more comfortable in their own skin and don’t “need” men as much, as they
have their children. Men need to be “needed” and when they realise that their EX/DW/DP are flourishing and don’t “need” them anymore they can’t hack it. They’ve taken their position for granted and when it’s no longer required they don’t know what to do with themselves. Just my two cents worth!^

I see women being independent, but I don't see it as men missing being needed - I see men who don't like that their partners aren't centering their lives on them any more - that they have to iron their own shirt or make dinner, or she might not be there for a chat every time he wants one. But with the same outcomes - men feeling a bit lost.

I think all of this gets muddied because Doctors really do diagnose 'depression' for everything - a colleague was on all sorts, and was having suicidal thoughts, because of 'depression' but in the end a private consult and Testosterone and he's back to himself (lets not talk about how that 'self' then left his wife and kids and took up with a young woman he met on the internet). Women, we know, are disproportionately diagnosed and dosed too.

I do take studies like the one mentioned before with a grain of salt, as I've seen men and women with identical problems, and the women's issues were downplayed, and the men's overstated - it happens for pain, for workloads, for life issues - I suspect that it will happen in suicidal ideation too.

This is very true. I'm in that position, have no close friends and with the stress of trying to earn enough to keep the family going it can be extremely hard. It's still hard, but it's better now.
In my case, multiple births meant that there was no financial way my wife could continue to work when they were little, as we had no childcare support. I remember once seeing the lump sum payable from my work pension if I were to die in service, and realising it would clear the mortgage.