AIBU?
Mental health issues. Am I being unsympathetic?
PurpleSky300 · 02/10/2022 13:51
I feel afraid to say how I’m feeling ‘’in real life’ so I thought I would put it here.
Essentially, there are three young men in my family (aged 25-32) who have long-standing problems with depression. They are skilled, talented people but they have struggled with keeping jobs, have drifted from their friends, rarely leave the house. They are well supported by their parents.
What I struggle with is that somewhere along the line, this has become ‘normal.’ In the sense that nobody expects it to change, it’s the status quo, it has gone on for years and if you ask any of them about things like hobbies / applying for jobs / plans to leave home / friendships or anything that might help them move on, they get angry and you get attacked for not ‘understanding’.
I’ve never had severe depression so maybe they’re right, I don’t fully understand. And whenever I try, it seems I’m always saying the wrong thing or verging away from what’s expected. The truth is what I see from the ‘outside’ is just… complacency, loss of hope, a whole bunch of adults so frightened of saying the wrong thing that they’ve accepted a ‘new normal’ that couldn’t be further from normal.
We are a very plain-speaking Northern family and I don’t understand how supporting someone with MH issues came to mean – tiptoeing around them / never challenging them / never speaking your mind for fear of what they might do. It’s a strange claustrophobic situation and I don’t know what to do for the best. Am I being unreasonable?
Quincythequince · 05/10/2022 17:52
tickticksnooze · 02/10/2022 14:31
if you ask any of them about things like hobbies / applying for jobs / plans to leave home / friendships or anything that might help them move on
That's not small talk, that's a set of intrusive questions that are very clearly communicating your opinion about what you think they should be doing.
Oh give over! No, it’s not.
How else she going to ask about them?
No matter what she said it could be Considered intrusive, or indeed expecting too much of them (i.e. asking about current affairs).
What exactly do you suggest she says?
How are you? Well clearly they’re not well, so that’s a bad question too.
Stop seeing malintent where there is none.
Cameleongirl · 05/10/2022 18:23
@MissingNashville There’s some truth in what the OP and others are saying though . I’m diagnosed with GAD, have had counseling and have taken medication for years. Even when I was having panic attacks, I still had to go to work because I had to pay bills and I had to look after my children. The alternative was getting into financial difficulties and having my children taken away from me- they were huge motivators in getting help and literally fighting my anxiety.
My DH was kind to me, but he didn’t enable me to stay at home in bed or play games all day, for example.
If someone else is taking care of everything for you, it does give you less motivation, IME.
MissingNashville · 05/10/2022 18:48
Quincythequince · 05/10/2022 17:52
Oh give over! No, it’s not.
How else she going to ask about them?
No matter what she said it could be Considered intrusive, or indeed expecting too much of them (i.e. asking about current affairs).
What exactly do you suggest she says?
How are you? Well clearly they’re not well, so that’s a bad question too.
Stop seeing malintent where there is none.
tickticksnooze · 02/10/2022 14:31
if you ask any of them about things like hobbies / applying for jobs / plans to leave home / friendships or anything that might help them move on
That's not small talk, that's a set of intrusive questions that are very clearly communicating your opinion about what you think they should be doing.
If you know someone has depression, have drifted from friends and rarely leave the house then what they fuck would you ask them about hobbies, applying for jobs, friends and leaving home for. 🤦🏻♀️ Those will feel like huge things for that person, those things will probably feel a million miles from where they are at the moment.
You may as well ask them when they’re going to be a qualified astronaut and when their first trip to space is. They show judgement from you about where there life should be, according to you, but they’ll already know their life isn’t ‘normal’ and they’re missing out on things others of their age are doing. Highlighting this don’t help to ‘move them on’, it will probably just make them feel worse and you’ll be someone that they can’t talk to as you have shown you have no understanding.
When my friend was depressed, I told her it was good to see her. I talked to her about smaller topics like what our dogs were up to and things things on tv. Occasionally she’d open up for 5 minutes here and there. That’s when we’d talk about getting more help, eventually she agreed. I’d offer to take her for a drive, no pressure to get out of the car but we could if she wanted. A trip to a quiet cafe at a not busy time. Slowly, slowly and no judgement of one week she felt worse than the last. No big topics of conversation, no talking about planning too far ahead, just very small steps.
MissingNashville · 05/10/2022 19:01
Cameleongirl · 05/10/2022 18:23
@MissingNashville There’s some truth in what the OP and others are saying though . I’m diagnosed with GAD, have had counseling and have taken medication for years. Even when I was having panic attacks, I still had to go to work because I had to pay bills and I had to look after my children. The alternative was getting into financial difficulties and having my children taken away from me- they were huge motivators in getting help and literally fighting my anxiety.
My DH was kind to me, but he didn’t enable me to stay at home in bed or play games all day, for example.
If someone else is taking care of everything for you, it does give you less motivation, IME.
In your experience being the important part.
My friend has no one paying her bills, she lost her career, her house and a lot more. She just couldn’t do what needed doing at that time.
I’ve worked with people with depression, this is not uncommon unfortunately despite claims ‘most people would sort themselves out if it meant not eating’. 🙄
OP is clueless, she doesn’t know what’s going on in these men’s lives, she’s just judging them and their apparently enabling parents. She’s likely not privy to the details of their health or any treatment because of how she is.
Anyway, this thread is pissing me off, lots of clueless people talking shite so I’m not engaging further.
TheHoover · 05/10/2022 19:30
The issue of motivation to recover is being underplayed here. It is a huge part of mental health treatment.
The parallels with physical health are also interesting. I am very good friends with a physiotherapist; she tells me that the majority of people they see in their service have precious little motivation to recover and either don’t come in again after the first 1-2 sessions or turn up but clearly haven’t done a single exercise since the last session. They seem happier to live with the debilitating effects of a bad back / hip / knee. And have a perfectly good excuse to remain off work / on disability benefits and live the rest of their lives in front of the TV.
I don’t understand why it’s sacrilege to cast aspersions that some people with mental health issues may similarly lack motivation to recover, preferring the cushiness of their current situation to having to go to work.
PurpleSky300 · 05/10/2022 19:58
MissingNashville · 05/10/2022 16:13
These men that OP speaks about could be getting help, they just don’t tell OP. Who could blame them? She’s sounds ignorant and judgemental, like things would be sorted if she was in charge. 🙄 No one tells that person anything. You humour them, smile and nod and can’t wait for them to go away.
Getting back to having good mental health can be a really slow process, it doesn’t mean people aren’t working in it.
I'm neither of those things and the idea that these adult men are "guarded" from me (like I'm some sort of ghoul knocking on the window), is silly. It's a strange, isolating, lonely experience trying to help someone, I know how their parents feel because I hear about their experiences. You are incredibly wrong.
PurpleSky300 · 05/10/2022 20:03
MissingNashville · 05/10/2022 19:01
In your experience being the important part.
My friend has no one paying her bills, she lost her career, her house and a lot more. She just couldn’t do what needed doing at that time.
I’ve worked with people with depression, this is not uncommon unfortunately despite claims ‘most people would sort themselves out if it meant not eating’. 🙄
OP is clueless, she doesn’t know what’s going on in these men’s lives, she’s just judging them and their apparently enabling parents. She’s likely not privy to the details of their health or any treatment because of how she is.
Anyway, this thread is pissing me off, lots of clueless people talking shite so I’m not engaging further.
Cameleongirl · 05/10/2022 18:23
@MissingNashville There’s some truth in what the OP and others are saying though . I’m diagnosed with GAD, have had counseling and have taken medication for years. Even when I was having panic attacks, I still had to go to work because I had to pay bills and I had to look after my children. The alternative was getting into financial difficulties and having my children taken away from me- they were huge motivators in getting help and literally fighting my anxiety.
My DH was kind to me, but he didn’t enable me to stay at home in bed or play games all day, for example.
If someone else is taking care of everything for you, it does give you less motivation, IME.
Nobody here is clueless. You're being confrontational and making things up to suit your skewed interpretations.
MeetYouInTheMiddle · 05/10/2022 20:14
PurpleSky300 · 05/10/2022 19:58
I'm neither of those things and the idea that these adult men are "guarded" from me (like I'm some sort of ghoul knocking on the window), is silly. It's a strange, isolating, lonely experience trying to help someone, I know how their parents feel because I hear about their experiences. You are incredibly wrong.
MissingNashville · 05/10/2022 16:13
These men that OP speaks about could be getting help, they just don’t tell OP. Who could blame them? She’s sounds ignorant and judgemental, like things would be sorted if she was in charge. 🙄 No one tells that person anything. You humour them, smile and nod and can’t wait for them to go away.
Getting back to having good mental health can be a really slow process, it doesn’t mean people aren’t working in it.
In fairness, their parents are probably not sharing details of their grown sons health with you, they shouldn’t be. The sons may not tell their parents everything. You seem to be under the impression that these people with depression are not doing anything to help themselves but you can’t know that. They could be having counselling that you are not told about. They may have counselling or be accessing services that even their parents are not aware of.
Quincythequince · 05/10/2022 20:57
MissingNashville · 05/10/2022 19:01
In your experience being the important part.
My friend has no one paying her bills, she lost her career, her house and a lot more. She just couldn’t do what needed doing at that time.
I’ve worked with people with depression, this is not uncommon unfortunately despite claims ‘most people would sort themselves out if it meant not eating’. 🙄
OP is clueless, she doesn’t know what’s going on in these men’s lives, she’s just judging them and their apparently enabling parents. She’s likely not privy to the details of their health or any treatment because of how she is.
Anyway, this thread is pissing me off, lots of clueless people talking shite so I’m not engaging further.
Cameleongirl · 05/10/2022 18:23
@MissingNashville There’s some truth in what the OP and others are saying though . I’m diagnosed with GAD, have had counseling and have taken medication for years. Even when I was having panic attacks, I still had to go to work because I had to pay bills and I had to look after my children. The alternative was getting into financial difficulties and having my children taken away from me- they were huge motivators in getting help and literally fighting my anxiety.
My DH was kind to me, but he didn’t enable me to stay at home in bed or play games all day, for example.
If someone else is taking care of everything for you, it does give you less motivation, IME.
So your experience with mental illness is more valid or important than others is it??
Ok then.
PurpleSky300 · 05/10/2022 20:58
Anyone can suddenly find someone they love struggling with depression. It could be a husband, a sister, a work colleague, anyone. And if you do understand that depression is a shitty, horrible thing that makes you feel worthless and alone, then why would you impose this bizarre limit on who is allowed to care?
I had a close friend who confided in me for years about depression, talking way into the night. He was desperate to get better, it felt like he researched every new treatment and medication on earth, he never gave up. One day he would be really hopeful and positive because he'd found something and the next he would be talking about detailed suicide plans. The whole thing was hard to hear, hard to know how to react, and if I wanted to say “God, I’m tired, please let me sleep” then I didn’t in fear of reactions like some of the ones here. It’s like some people expect the family and friends of a depressed person to be more than human? To be a massive reservoir of empathy and energy and woe betide you if you ever get tired or upset or pissed off. My friend died due to an unrelated cause, and I still feel guilty and worry about times when I didn’t ‘say the right thing.’ It doesn’t meant you don’t care, sometimes there is no ‘right’ thing to say, you just have to absorb it and listen.
You can think I’m the mad aunt knocking at the window, whatever. I am frightened for my relatives and nobody wants to say anything, except complaining uselessly to each other. We are all just watching something unfold and somehow “Go away, leave it to their therapist” doesn’t cut it.
IScreamAtMichaelangelos · 05/10/2022 21:11
I have skimread the thread and wanted to say the following: I'm autistic and have been depressed on various occasions in my life, spanning several years each time. I also have a degree, a PhD, a husband, children, job and friends. I don't think I would have any of those things if it weren't for unsympathetic people forcibly pushing me out of my comfort zone and into the world; instead I truly believe I'd be sat in a room in my parents' house, miserable and isolated yet too scared/stuck to make a move.
So I get it, OP. I hope your young relatives improve over time. In some such cases, sadly, the situation only improves for the afflicted persons once their parents have passed away and the safety net is gone.
PurplePansy05 · 05/10/2022 22:42
I have two people like this in the closest family circle and it's such hard work. I say this with sympathy and compassion because I have anxiety and PTSD, but it's managed through therapy and my own self-help and apart from certain times, I am living a normal life. Depression seems like a different cup of tea though, I clearly never experienced it because I can't understand it, but the reality is that it's making life so hard not only for the people suffering, but to everyone around them. I think it's wrong to leave it. The person affected has to take responsibility for it, seek treatment and help. They should not be allowed to reach depths from which they are really struggling to get out. But they need to recognise they have to do it, for themselves and for people they love.
It's a really difficult situation for the closest family members. I think it depends on how long the person has had these issues for. One of my family members has been suffering for several years, is now on medication, seeking help from GP and psychiatric nurse, starting counselling. Reading self-help books. Time will tell if this helps, but in this case it took a massive family intervention to turn things around. He nearly lost his wife and family, and things are still on the verge of divorce. His wife was telling him for ages to address these issues and he buried his head in the sand and did so many stupid things which eventually bit him in the back and it all kicked off. Awful story but hopefully he'll get better. The other family member, she's been suffering for 20+ years, undiagnosed, in denial, shifting her problems onto everyone else, quit working, indulged in self-pity and darkness and refusing to do anything about it. She's one of those expecting everyone around her to provide everything she needs but give nothing in return. No amount of family interventions or support changed things and sadly I think she'll die this way.
If people refuse the help, we can't help them. The choice is to accept them or leave.
ddl1 · 06/10/2022 00:53
pattihews · 04/10/2022 13:39
You twist what I and others are saying. We don't think 'people with mental health problems are just spoilt brats who could stop being mentally ill if they weren't pampered' and it feels quite malicious that you should choose to interpret me that way. And simplistic.
We see complex patterns of behaviour and emotional and physical dependency that may be impeding the efficacy of treatment and respite/ recovery/ improvement. We see a number of people being adversely affected by the needs of a loved one.
It goes without saying that there needs to be much, more more support for people trapped in caring situations with family members who need constant care for whatever reason. With my feminist hat on, I particularly want to see women relieved of the expectation of caring — because it's so often the mothers and daughters who are assumed able and willing to do the work.
My father had two long periods of clinical depression which made family life extremely difficult and left all of us scarred. I've been really clear with my partners that I don't expect them to look after me should I turn out to have inherited his depressive disposition. Fortunately I don't seem to have done so. I loved my dad but I wouldn't want to inflict on anyone else what we went through with him. My partner and I have both agreed that if either of us develops dementia the other is absolutely free to walk away and enjoy their final years without guilt or regret.
I wasn't attacking you, or even responding directly to your posts, and I apologize if I gave that impression. FWIW, I do think that, while in the past people were far too willing to put mentally ill people into hospitals and institutions, the pendulum has swung a little too far in the other direction, and 'care in the community', combined with under-resourcing of social care, can sometimes result in either no care at all, or extreme burdens on family members.
There HAVE been posts on this thread (not yours) which imply that chronic mental health issues are linked to life being made too cushy for people with these conditions, and that in past, tougher times, people would have had no option but to get over their problems. It is really this attitude that I find upsetting, just like the attitude by certain tabloid writers and government members that people with physical disabilities and chronic illnesses should be regarded as malingerers and benefit cheats until proved otherwise.
Chonfox · 06/10/2022 01:02
YANBU OP. You will be attacked on here as it appears a disproportionate amount of posters have mental health issues, which is not too surprising given it's an Internet forum, but just be aware as a lot of it will stem from defensiveness.
Your relatives situation is (I imagine) incredibly frustrating/upsetting to watch. I've been there and continue to be so with family memebers. They don't want to help themselves now, as their habits have become too entrenched and the world is too daunting to re-enter at this point. It's a sad waste of lives but there's only so much you can do to help. I leave them to it now and just keep things light and superficial as otherwise they'd drain the life from me. YANBU
PurplePansy05 · 06/10/2022 06:29
This may be an unpopular opinion, but there are people out there with MH issues who:
a) refuse to acknowledge it's an illness and they need treatment to get better;
b) refuse to adhere to treatment/recommendations;
c) likely are in one of the two categories above and are also selfish dicks, and always have been and the reason they don't want to do the above is because "MH issues" as they think sermingly these days gives them a free pass to continue to be dicks, only now everyone has to put up and shut up and tiptoe around them.
in the above cases it's very difficult for everyone around to help. Regarding scenario c) above, frankly they should be cut off because it's abusive behaviour and no one should have to put up with this. They give a bad name to thosr who have genuine MH issues and who aren't dicks, but at times they don't act like themselves and their difficult behaviour stems from that. There is a difference and families usually know it, outsiders might not and there's way too much sympathy.
I knew when I was acting like a dick occasionally when I was in my deepest anxiety and PTSD and I knew it wasn't me and that it was upsetting to others, so I sought help. There is no other way and there should be an open discussion, indeed, like with any other illness, not pure enabling which makes things worse all the time.
Threatening suicide regularly can be an abusive tactic aimed at attention seeking if the person is in the c) category too. I was at the receiving end of it and it's completely unacceptable and nobody can dress it up nicely. It's damaging to others to the extent these people should be assessed on a medical ward, it's not for families to carry that burden. This is not the same as people in depths of despair feeling so low they think about ending it and they need every help possible.
PurplePansy05 · 06/10/2022 06:35
10storeylovesong · 03/10/2022 06:21
This whole situation is so complex and difficult. My sil is 14 years older than my dh, and has struggled with depression and anxiety her whole life. She has disordered eating and is morbidly obese as a result. She has never had a relationship or a job (in her 50s now) and has lived at home with parents. This suited mil and they were very codependent. She has never claimed benefits as she is scared of the system, and won't go to gp despite several serious health issues as she doesn't like being told she is overweight. She has depended on in laws for financial support her whole life.
Both In laws passed away suddenly in last few years and we were left in a position where she had no money coming in but still wouldn't claim. We had to use 'tough love' to tell her to go through the system as we supported her for 6 months (financially, emotionally, physically) and she attempted suicide, but in a way that she knew she would be found. My dh wanted to leave it as she was scared of what she wanted to do next, but we physically can't afford it so had to push it again. She's actually sorted with benefits now after 50 years of never having money coming in. However, she has had massive health scares and been told to lose a huge amount of weight and won't / can't do anything at all about it. She is at huge risk of clots and been told to move around a bit more, but refuses to even try (and I mean to kitchen, front door etc). Both dh and I work in mental health fields and do understand them, but from a family and personal level it's so hard and frustrating as we are picking up the burden - and I love her to bits, but it is a burden caring for her completely with both working full time, two young kids and aging parents on my side to care for too - while she will do absolutely nothing to help herself and it feels like a legacy of many many years of her parents allowing her to live like this while not supporting her to make any changes.
My 9 year old son also struggles with anxiety and I'm so scared he will end up like this. If it was left up to him he would sit and read and game all day. I feel like we are constantly pushing him into activities that challenge his comfort zone. We have 3-4 sleepless nights before every day out and weekend away, but then he enjoys it every single time when he goes. I don't know what the answer is, and am scared as he gets older he will push back more and more and his world will get smaller and smaller. He's had a referral for his anxiety and is on an 18 month waiting list...
I agree with this (and feel for you).
Regarding your son, you will probably know from your professional experience that what you're doing is one of the CBT methods (behavioural experiment) and is 100% the right thing for you to keep at as parents. Just wanted to reassure you. Hope he gets help with his anxiety, don't stop in the meantime 💐
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