Mental health issues. Am I being unsympathetic?

[PurpleSky300]

I feel afraid to say how I’m feeling ‘’in real life’ so I thought I would put it here.
Essentially, there are three young men in my family (aged 25-32) who have long-standing problems with depression. They are skilled, talented people but they have struggled with keeping jobs, have drifted from their friends, rarely leave the house. They are well supported by their parents.

What I struggle with is that somewhere along the line, this has become ‘normal.’ In the sense that nobody expects it to change, it’s the status quo, it has gone on for years and if you ask any of them about things like hobbies / applying for jobs / plans to leave home / friendships or anything that might help them move on, they get angry and you get attacked for not ‘understanding’.

I’ve never had severe depression so maybe they’re right, I don’t fully understand. And whenever I try, it seems I’m always saying the wrong thing or verging away from what’s expected. The truth is what I see from the ‘outside’ is just… complacency, loss of hope, a whole bunch of adults so frightened of saying the wrong thing that they’ve accepted a ‘new normal’ that couldn’t be further from normal.

We are a very plain-speaking Northern family and I don’t understand how supporting someone with MH issues came to mean – tiptoeing around them / never challenging them / never speaking your mind for fear of what they might do. It’s a strange claustrophobic situation and I don’t know what to do for the best. Am I being unreasonable?

[Redqueenheart]

@BruceHellerAlmighty' 'It's a collection of mental processes that are problematic and often distressing for the people who apprehend those mental processes but it doesn't physically prevent people from carrying out day to day activities. It might feel like it, sometimes very strongly, but it doesn't.''

The mind boggles really.

I assume you have never been involved in caring for people with mental health issues or ever been on mental health ward.

Because I can assure you many of these people are certainly not able to ''carry out day to day activity'' in the slightest. Not to mention the fact that some are a danger to themselves and to others.

@PurpleSky300 ''They are young men who have their whole lives ahead - how can it be more reasonable to think 'well this is just how things are' than to try and help them?''

But you are not helping them (and I assume no one asked you to in the first place, so maybe that should be a hint...), you are judging them.

When someone is struggling with mental issues it should be left to mental health professional and to the person themselves to work out what is best for them. Close relatives (partner, parents) can be involved in the discussion but the last thing they need is random people telling them what is best for them...

I am really staggered by what I have read on this thread you would think we have not moved on from the Victorian times when it comes to mental health and its effect on people.

[BruceHellerAlmighty]

@Redqueenheart they're not physically unable to though. Sorry I wasn't clear. People can absolutely feel unable and can definitely feel strongly unable to the point of stasis and deep distress, due to their thought processes, to carry out day to day activities. But that again is a thought process not a physical bar. So categorising it the same as a physical barrier doesn't address what's actually going on.

[Minimalme]

I bet they enjoy your visit op - what with your attempt to help them "move on".

I'm sure that they still live with their parents, don't have jobs or relationships is simply because they lack your ability to listen to plain common sense.

Have you thought about delivering your insights professionally so others can benefit?

[Georgeskitchen]

@FamilyTreeBuilder

I hear you op and we have someone similar in our extended family. He was an anxious child, things got worse when he was 12/13 and by a year later he was refusing to go to school. His parents refused to tackle it at that stage, he was not supported to speak to a GP or counsellor or anything. Never sat any GCSEs.

That was 10 years ago and he's done nothing with his life since. No apprenticeship, no training, no job, nothing. No friends, no girlfriend/boyfriend, no social life. Parents get exceptionally defensive when you ask how he's doing.

He's not claiming benefits because that would put him in the "system" of being asked to address his issues, get some qualifications or take a part time job. So he sits in the house all day, every day, apart from taking the dog for a walk. This behaviour is now so deeply entrenched that it will not change unless something drastic happens. His parents are in their 50s, they could potentially have another 30/40 years of him living with them at home.

He's been totally failed by the NHS, schools but most of all by his own parents and it's really sad.

How has he been failed by the NHS if he refuses to engage with them?

[pattihews]

Redqueenheart, you've used the judgment word in a accusing way. But we all judge all the time. We see a child being spoken to inappropriately, a smack, crying in the night, locked out in the back garden in the rain and we make a judgment call to intervene. We see a neighbour we know to be alcohol dependent careering down the pavement in his car and we make a judgment call and phone the police. We see our bi-polar neighbour behaving increasingly erratically and up and about 24/7 and we make a judgment call to the mental health team and warn them that she's entering a manic phase and can someone come out and assess.

We see three young people spending their lives at home, avoiding confronting their problems, slowly losing all chance of leading a fruitful independent life — and perhaps it's time someone made the judgment call for an intervention and got them the help they could have had years ago.

[PinkFrogss]

YANBU OP, it’s sad to hear of many young people like this.

Theres a line between being caring and understanding, and being enabling.

I also imagine it’s a bit chicken and egg, I mean who wouldn’t be depressed living like that?

The longer they are enabled to have a non functional life the harder it will become for them to reintegrate with society.

[SlouchingTowardsBethlehemAgain]

I know quite a lot of young adults (mostly male) in this situation and it is heartbreaking to see the misery of their lives and their parent's distress. I wonder what these young people would have done in the past, when most people were very poor and all family members had to work. I think they would have found a way to contribute.

[Allergictoironing]

I'm not expecting anyone to magically change but I don't think it makes sense to give up all hope of anything and accept this is lifelong, it will never improve so there's no point trying, etc.

It wouldn't make sense to anybody who hasn't been there themselves, because their mind works completely differently. It isn't just feeling low or miserable, you physically can't make the effort to do anything about it.

Yes, support from others can be very helpful for recovery, but not by trying to "gee them up", that can make them feel even worse because in their minds obviously they must be helpless & hopeless because they can't do this, which makes them spiral ever deeper. Supportive can just mean ask them how they are that day, pick up on any bright spots they may mention, maybe work out what they DO do all day & learn about it yourself e.g. if they play mindless phone games, play them yourself a bit so you can talk to them about that, or watch a few episodes of whatever they watch on TV so you can have a non-pressured conversation about what is going on in their lives rather than telling them about all the things they are missing out on.

[ChicCroissant]

Whatever the reason, it is very hard to watch someone's world shrink down to nothing.

[Yourstory]

I can see both sides. I have a lot of empathy for those with mental health issues.

Saying that, I think SOMETIMES the issue is that because they are men with mental health issues that being helpless is enabled. This in the long run makes the situation worse. If they were women who were single primary caregivers the chances are no matter how bad they felt they would have no other choice to get ok with it, and so they would. If not their children would end up in care and the majority of mothers would turn the universe upside down before that happened.

Of course there are other issues such as undiagnosed autism ect. But I think this is a big one.

[LadybirdsAreNeverHappy]

@pattihews

LadybirdsAreNeverHappy, a question for you. How would you cope as the ageing parent of three children who spend their days at home in their rooms, playing video games and expecting three meals a day in their 20s and 30s and doing nothing to get help? What about the lives of their parents? Why do you have so little sympathy for the rest of the family?

Some of us here are looking at both sides of the coin but it's really clear that many of those with a history of MH problems can only see one.

But the OP is not the parent here.
How are we supposed to know how they feel or what the actual situation here?
Nothing I’ve said is unsympathetic to the parents. It doesn’t matter if they are ageing, they don’t seem to have asked for interference in their lives. It’s the OP’s assumption that they are afraid to speak their minds, maybe they are just understanding and accepting of their sons illnesses. It is pure ignorance to think people with depression can just shake it off and get on with their lives. The parents of three children who have it would know this better than most.

[AmInormallk]

@PurpleSky300

I feel afraid to say how I’m feeling ‘’in real life’ so I thought I would put it here.
Essentially, there are three young men in my family (aged 25-32) who have long-standing problems with depression. They are skilled, talented people but they have struggled with keeping jobs, have drifted from their friends, rarely leave the house. They are well supported by their parents.

What I struggle with is that somewhere along the line, this has become ‘normal.’ In the sense that nobody expects it to change, it’s the status quo, it has gone on for years and if you ask any of them about things like hobbies / applying for jobs / plans to leave home / friendships or anything that might help them move on, they get angry and you get attacked for not ‘understanding’.

I’ve never had severe depression so maybe they’re right, I don’t fully understand. And whenever I try, it seems I’m always saying the wrong thing or verging away from what’s expected. The truth is what I see from the ‘outside’ is just… complacency, loss of hope, a whole bunch of adults so frightened of saying the wrong thing that they’ve accepted a ‘new normal’ that couldn’t be further from normal.

We are a very plain-speaking Northern family and I don’t understand how supporting someone with MH issues came to mean – tiptoeing around them / never challenging them / never speaking your mind for fear of what they might do. It’s a strange claustrophobic situation and I don’t know what to do for the best. Am I being unreasonable?

Trust me - they do NOT like living like this. This post is giving me chills, tbh

OP you say this - I don’t understand how supporting someone with MH issues came to mean – tiptoeing around them / never challenging them
What you mean by challenging them? That word 'challenging' borders on very dangerous ground and I feel concerned - What exactly are you challenging them about?

When you say they are 'well supported' by their family, - what exactly does this mean?

You sound frustrated with the whole situation - on a daily basis - how does their condition affect your life - are you providing care and support, yourself?

[pointythings]

I am very on the fence here. I have a DC who has BPD and PTSD, which come with feelings of depression, anxiety, hallucinations, DC also has autism and physical disabilities and is using a wheelchair, And yet they are at uni, living independently, getting the grades, socialising, writing poetry and getting a reputation in that field. They take medication and are on the waiting list for therapy. So it can be done,

But,

Not everyone has a massively supportive family. Not everyone has the insight and ability to accept there are problems. Not everyone can live with all that physical and mental pain and keep fighting.

So maybe don't judge.

[FamilyTreeBuilder]

It's very frustrating seeing someone like this in your family @AmInormallk . Someone who you have known from birth, who was at your wedding, you were at their baptism, see them at all important family events. They are part of your family and of course OP is allowed to feel sad and frustrated with the whole situation.

Challenging them means not being an enabler. Not sitting them pretending everything is fine and dandy when it's clearly not. Signposting parents to local support, or clinics, or self-help or whatever. Not charging in with your best head-girl attitude to give them all a good talking to. Obviously.

In my situation what "well-supported" means is that the parents are providing all the financial support this person needs to exist as the individual will not claim benefits (as the benefits people will either want to help him get treatment, or encourage him to work). They are enabling him to maintain the status quo of living as he did as a 15 year old, a decade ago. They provide food, a roof over his head, pay his phone bill, make sure he has clothes. They also close ranks around him, shut down any discussion about him - because deep down they are embarrassed that this situation has not changed in A DECADE and will not change because they are not prepared to take any steps to facilitate the change. Their son is unable to make any changes at this stage, he's in too deep and has stagnated horribly in ten years. They are "supportive" in the sense that they are meeting his basic needs for food and shelter but not supportive in the slightest in looking at the bigger picture.

Really surprised how many posters take the butt out, say nothing, leave them to it approach.

[Teenyliving]

Not always - it sometimes (I actually think often) there is a whole family dynamic going on - the parents (often a sahm mother) get something out bif the dependency.

My unhappily married then divorced mothers dream life for me was to stay depressed and not leave home. Since I was little she convinced me I was naturally depressed/anxious etc. she then met a man and couldn’t dump me quickly enough. But that was what ultimately saved me.

I’ve now worked out I’m not predisposed to depression at all - it was a response to my environment.

of course mh conditions can be “naturally occurring” or the result of external trauma. But the role of family dynamics is very often overlooked

[FamilyTreeBuilder]

Not always - it sometimes (I actually think often) there is a whole family dynamic going on - the parents (often a sahm mother) get something out bif the dependency.

I also VERY much identify with this scenario in what's going on with my family. The mother of the 25 year old concerned still has another, older child living at home. She has only ever worked part time and likes to play the indispensable martyr to the older child, ferrying him to a 6am start at work, picking him up from late nights out, running endless errands for him. She moans to high heaven about being "busy" but enjoys being needed.

Her life is fairly empty otherwise - same job in her 50s that she had when she left school, no friends, no hobbies, no social life. SO having her adult children still at home in their 20s and dependent on her in the same way as they were dependent when they were 11 and 15 suits her just fine.

[namechange3394]

@PurpleSky300

I'm not expecting anyone to magically change but I don't think it makes sense to give up all hope of anything and accept this is lifelong, it will never improve so there's no point trying, etc. They are young men who have their whole lives ahead - how can it be more reasonable to think 'well this is just how things are' than to try and help them?

But you're not being very helpful are you? You're suggesting they just go and get a job to "help them move on", when what they probably need is medication and/or counselling.

What you're doing is the equivalent of asking someone with a broken leg why they haven't bothered to go back to the gym yet.

[Teenyliving]

@FamilyTreeBuilder yup - I was also the younger child. My sister had her own issues in the way she was treated - but she was allowed to become independent much more than me.

maternal enmeshment can be devastating

very difficult to do anything about it though. I think it’s hideous abuse - but how can it be proven?

it’s awful.

[ddl1]

@BruceHellerAlmighty

@Redqueenheart they're not physically unable to though. Sorry I wasn't clear. People can absolutely feel unable and can definitely feel strongly unable to the point of stasis and deep distress, due to their thought processes, to carry out day to day activities. But that again is a thought process not a physical bar. So categorising it the same as a physical barrier doesn't address what's actually going on.

If their brain problems make them unable to function, then they're physically unable to do so, just as much as someone with damage to their arms or legs or spine. Some people with diseases such as Alzheimers still have the motor ability to carry out many tasks, but lack the cognitive ability. People with Parkinsons may be able to make certain movements automatically, that they can't intentionally. Anything that affects the brain's function is a physical problem at some level. In any case, withdrawing support or trying to force depressed people to function like non-depressed people is not going to cure them!

[Snaketime]

You say they have their whole lives ahead of them like it is a good thing, when in reality when you are suffering with depression that is a terrible thing and you have to take everything moment to moment.
Have they sought out any help at all? Therapy? Medication? If they have then this is probably the best they are going to get at the moment, the black fog may lift at some point and then they can get back on their feet, if they haven't you need to gently nudge them towards doing so.

The thing that most people don't understand about depression is that getting out of the house and doing stuff doesn't stop it or make it better, you are just depressed outside the house rather than in it. Yes being stuck in the same 4 walls can cause you to dive deeper into it, but that doesn't mean going out helps either. I used to find it worse seeing all these "happy" people and wonder why that wasn't me.

[RedHelenB]

@namechange3394

But you're not being very helpful are you? You're suggesting they just go and get a job to "help them move on", when what they probably need is medication and/or counselling.

What you're doing is the equivalent of asking someone with a broken leg why they haven't bothered to go back to the gym yet.

But a person with a broken keg would do physiotherapy, would use crutches to get out and about etc. Yes depression is crippling but it doesn't have to be a life sentence, there is support and medication out there.

[Hakunamatata91]

Its a tricky one. I've had severe mental health issues, and when I was really depressed, leaving the house was incredibly hard. I would try force myself out for very short walks and spend those wanting to just sit on the pavement and cry. And believe it or not I'm not a dramatic person- thats just how bad I was feeling. If someone had been asking me about how much I'm going out, or asked questions that highlighted all the areas I was struggling with, that would have made me hate myself even more. I was really lucky in the support I had from friends - they were there for me and supported me without making me feel judged. Eg one got me a gift of a one tray easy cookbook which helped prompt doing some actual cooking. They will know its not normal, pointing it out to them, explicitly or by questioning them, will not in any way help. Equally pretending its normal won't help. I would just try keep any opinions to yourself about the negatives, and encourage any positives you can see.

[BruceHellerAlmighty]

@ddl1

If their brain problems make them unable to function, then they're physically unable to do so, just as much as someone with damage to their arms or legs or spine. Some people with diseases such as Alzheimers still have the motor ability to carry out many tasks, but lack the cognitive ability. People with Parkinsons may be able to make certain movements automatically, that they can't intentionally. Anything that affects the brain's function is a physical problem at some level. In any case, withdrawing support or trying to force depressed people to function like non-depressed people is not going to cure them!

I'm sorry but no. They aren't as physically unable to do things. They're mentally unable due to their thought processes. But that is not a physical change, not in the same way that Alzheimer's and dementia are.

[ddl1]

@SlouchingTowardsBethlehemAgain

I know quite a lot of young adults (mostly male) in this situation and it is heartbreaking to see the misery of their lives and their parent's distress. I wonder what these young people would have done in the past, when most people were very poor and all family members had to work. I think they would have found a way to contribute.

What I think, is that most of them would have died young. Life was very uncertain even for the totally physically and mentally healthy; for the less healthy, long survival was unlikely. Even nowadays, people with serious mental health problems have lower life expectancies than those who don't.

There may be some people who would have done better in those days, NOT because if life was made tough enough, they would be forced out of their problems, but because there are some people who have a particular problem with the stress of decision-making, and might have coped better with the life of, for example, outdoor servants, whose lives were hard physically but who were deprived/relieved of much responsibility for making choices. But most would just not have survived.

And of course, in relatively recent times. most people with severe mental illnesses would have been placed in institutions.

[namechange3394]

@RedHelenB

But a person with a broken keg would do physiotherapy, would use crutches to get out and about etc. Yes depression is crippling but it doesn't have to be a life sentence, there is support and medication out there.

Well yes exactly, hence why I said they probably need medication or counselling?

I'm not saying they should be doing nothing but OP wondering why they don't just get a job or make some new friends is rather naïve I think - and expecting them to run before they can walk.