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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Would you support a junior doctor strike?

275 replies

NC3435 · 01/10/2022 21:44

NC for this. To be clear, during the last strike, non training grade doctors were in hospitals etc as were consultants. Emergency work continued and A+E was functioning. The background to the dispute is that JDs want pay restoration to the levels in 2008/09 and the BMA has been attempting to engage with the government for a while without any acknowledgement. There is a staffing and retention crisis with more and more doctors leaving the country every year. Those of us still around are pretty burnt out from the last 2 years and things are getting worse - this includes patient care.

OP posts:
fissty · 25/02/2023 20:48

Yep - the other sort

I wonder how understanding of these strikes you would be if it was you having your clinic appt cancelled when you’ve been referred for a two week wait and you’re fucking terrified, just to get your appointment at 4 weeks because of delays and then I call you to tell you it’s being cancelled but don’t worry we’ll see you in week 5 or 6 instead?

How you’d feel if your child’s surgery was being cancelled?

If your dads aneurysm was on the verge of rupture and he’s been waiting 3 months for it to be fixed and already been cancelled twice and then I call you to tell you we can’t staff that list but we’ll try to get him in soon (knowing damn well we won’t)

How about if you were coming in for your breast reconstruction after cancer, happy to give that up for the strikes?

Happy to have your surgery cancelled to make way the people cancelled during the strikes?

Happy to have all your plans changed and your C-section another week because no lists are running that day

But yay! Strikes! I’m overworked and underpaid and I’m only 8 months into my first ever job but I’m walking out because the pay isn’t enough

You all are only supporting this when it doesn’t affect you

mumsneedwine · 25/02/2023 20:51

For v v v v few will it be their first ever job. V strange comments by someone who works with medical staff. Empathy is usually a prerequisite. Or maybe that's why the NHS is on its knees.

fissty · 25/02/2023 20:52

And you know what fuck anyone who thinks they know what “sort” I am. Every Monday morning my phone starts ringing with hungover doctors calling in sick (grassed up by their pissed off colleagues). I was there before the 2016 contract negotiations - these doctors have no idea how good they’ve got it. Off to Oz and New Zealand we go….yep I’ll see you again soon when you’re begging to come back (two of my locums left the training programme and went to Oz - bitterly regret it)

mumsneedwine · 25/02/2023 20:53

Just wow. Get another job. Please.

fissty · 25/02/2023 20:56

mumsneedwine · 25/02/2023 20:51

For v v v v few will it be their first ever job. V strange comments by someone who works with medical staff. Empathy is usually a prerequisite. Or maybe that's why the NHS is on its knees.

Believe me , how many doctors do you know? Seriously?

im not talking about the 6 months they did in a care home or “volunteering” for their uni application. But actually worked a job, it is very very low

and let me tell you something else, the working class docs who have worked before display absolutely none of these behaviours (turning up late, the entitlement, the arrogance, the laziness of those who haven’t)

Sallyh87 · 25/02/2023 21:05

Yes of course I support ‘junior’ doctor strike. As someone who receives ALOT of medical care from the NHS and has had my life saved by doctors and consultants I have seen first hand how hard they work and am really grateful.

Surely we want our doctors to be the best and brightest and the top talent. If people can earn significantly more going into other professions which offer them a better work life balance then we will end up with a poorer medical profession. That makes me nervous.

Its seems like medical professionals are being held to ransom because they care about patients and don’t want to let them down, making striking more difficult for them.

Anyway, I hope negotiations can happen and the doctors get a fair deal and all of this can be avoided.

curcurbita · 25/02/2023 21:15

@fissty you are clearly one of the NHS admin types who contribute so much to making junior doctors' lives miserable as you see them as beneath you. The kind who can't be bothered to look at the rota so a doctor is not put on call on their own wedding day (despite months and months of notice, yes I know there is provision in the 2016 contract for doctors to get leave for that but the fact that clause even had to be put in there says a lot). If you think all that is happening for F1s/F2s is they are 'training' then you've clearly never paid attention to what they actually do day to day. Or you work in a paradise where the doctors get to attend all of their training opportunities, never miss a clinic or a theatre list because the ward is understaffed, go to all of their teaching etc etc

fissty · 25/02/2023 21:19

curcurbita · 25/02/2023 21:15

@fissty you are clearly one of the NHS admin types who contribute so much to making junior doctors' lives miserable as you see them as beneath you. The kind who can't be bothered to look at the rota so a doctor is not put on call on their own wedding day (despite months and months of notice, yes I know there is provision in the 2016 contract for doctors to get leave for that but the fact that clause even had to be put in there says a lot). If you think all that is happening for F1s/F2s is they are 'training' then you've clearly never paid attention to what they actually do day to day. Or you work in a paradise where the doctors get to attend all of their training opportunities, never miss a clinic or a theatre list because the ward is understaffed, go to all of their teaching etc etc

You really couldn’t be more wrong. I regularly grant leave under 6 weeks, I regularly have doctors in my office who need leave at short notice. I’ve never and I mean never cancel booked leave - I have locums cover. I offer a supportive, training focused rotation.

That doesn’t necessarily correlate with supporting the strikes.

But believe what you like, I’m very tired of all of this.

UmbilicusProfundus · 25/02/2023 21:28

Seems that your experience of junior doctors @fissty are those pretty fresh out of medical school who might need some support. The majority of “junior” doctors are actually senior professionals who are essentially running the hospital. Well, running it alongside you of course as you sound very important.

fissty · 25/02/2023 21:37

UmbilicusProfundus · 25/02/2023 21:28

Seems that your experience of junior doctors @fissty are those pretty fresh out of medical school who might need some support. The majority of “junior” doctors are actually senior professionals who are essentially running the hospital. Well, running it alongside you of course as you sound very important.

My regs aren’t striking , so essentially yes I am talking about juniors

Ill ignore the sarcasm

ApiratesaysYarrr · 25/02/2023 21:51

fissty · 25/02/2023 18:37

With the greatest respect, you have only your daughters experience to go by. It is not like that in many hospitals.

There is a lot of hyperbole within these discussions.

Many of these doctors are very young, this is the first real workplace they’ve been in (despite the earlier poster the vast majority have not worked before, either come from money, they’re nepo babies, or they’ve been supported by the proud family all through uni).

Our ward rounds start at 8am. I cannot tell you how many doctors turn up late because “it’s really early” “I had to go to costa” “I didn’t set my alarm” “I’m tired”

With the greatest respect (as you put it), as a doctor of >20 years experience, your perception is skewed.

Do you honestly think that the number of exception reports you get anywhere near reflects the reality of how many juniors work more than their paid hours? I can promise you that my experience and what I see on the ward doesn't chime with yours.

Depending on the units you work in, only lip service is paid to self development time (I've been a Foundation Training Programme Director, and had to tell one department several times that SDT was not optional, culminating in telling them that if they were unable to accommodate it, we would have to remove their Foundation doctors), mandatory clinic/theatre time etc. Some units are well run: many are not.

I am not suggesting that junior doctors are saints - they are people and like any people you will find those that cut corners, those that will be late when they can get away with it etc.

However, being a manager gives you only very limited insight into the actual work done/requirements of being a junior doctor: your job is to manage the aspects of their job related to their employment, not the actual clinical nuts and bolts of their day to day work. I do some management roles, but I wouldn't pretend to hold forth about my managers job.

BlazingFlames · 25/02/2023 21:53

The big question is . . . . . how will any payrise be funded?

mbosnz · 25/02/2023 21:55

Or is the big question - how will a loss of pay rise and conditions be suffered? By the patients, I'm meaningl

rainingsnoring · 25/02/2023 22:12

fissty · 25/02/2023 18:37

With the greatest respect, you have only your daughters experience to go by. It is not like that in many hospitals.

There is a lot of hyperbole within these discussions.

Many of these doctors are very young, this is the first real workplace they’ve been in (despite the earlier poster the vast majority have not worked before, either come from money, they’re nepo babies, or they’ve been supported by the proud family all through uni).

Our ward rounds start at 8am. I cannot tell you how many doctors turn up late because “it’s really early” “I had to go to costa” “I didn’t set my alarm” “I’m tired”

Funny, as a doctor of > 20 years, your posts bear no relation to my experience as a junior doctor.
You seem to not understand that the term 'junior doctor' refers to doctors all the way up to Consultant level so approx early 30s-early 40s. Hardly 'very young' and certainly not inexperienced. Indeed, we also learned very fast as we worked 2-3 times full time hours.

I'm also surprised that you know who is turning up on the wards and when if you are an NHS manager. When I was a junior doc, I never saw any managers on the wards at all. They all buggered off by 4/5pm as well. The doctors, on the other hand, were there 24 hours, 7 days a week.

KidsDr · 25/02/2023 22:22

@fissty registrars are junior doctors and yes they are striking. If you're not aware of this then that speaks volumes about some of the things you are claiming.

FYI am a registrar, I will be striking, I have been qualified for 8 years. As an FY1 my duties included being part of the team delivering resuscitation in an arrest scenario, attending emergencies on the ward such as patients suspected of having a stroke, heart attack, sepsis etc, I clerked patients, I performed cannulas, bloods, ordered investigations, made referrals, a hell of a lot of admin and shit jobs. On my out of hours shifts, I used to literally run. Literally run from task to task, I couldn't waste time walking in the corridors. On more than one occasion I told relatives that their loved one was going to die. I watched people die. I worked on one team where we were short staffed and between the team of 4 juniors, we worked a whole additional person in unpaid overtime every week. Between the 4 of us we did the ward round and covered the care of 60 patients over 6 wards every day during the busy season. I put so much pressure on myself, and felt like I failed every single day because I just couldn't do it all. There was so little "training" compared to the workload. It's actually worse now, I can say that with the perspective of a registrar.

Your comments are so unfounded and ignorant that you ought to be ashamed of yourself. For the record I've been in paid employment since I was 16 and I know what shitty minimum wage jobs are like.

forcedgeneric · 25/02/2023 22:30

When the current crop take your advice and leave for better pay and conditions, do you have a solution for the public health impact?

forcedgeneric · 25/02/2023 22:34

fissty · 25/02/2023 20:48

Yep - the other sort

I wonder how understanding of these strikes you would be if it was you having your clinic appt cancelled when you’ve been referred for a two week wait and you’re fucking terrified, just to get your appointment at 4 weeks because of delays and then I call you to tell you it’s being cancelled but don’t worry we’ll see you in week 5 or 6 instead?

How you’d feel if your child’s surgery was being cancelled?

If your dads aneurysm was on the verge of rupture and he’s been waiting 3 months for it to be fixed and already been cancelled twice and then I call you to tell you we can’t staff that list but we’ll try to get him in soon (knowing damn well we won’t)

How about if you were coming in for your breast reconstruction after cancer, happy to give that up for the strikes?

Happy to have your surgery cancelled to make way the people cancelled during the strikes?

Happy to have all your plans changed and your C-section another week because no lists are running that day

But yay! Strikes! I’m overworked and underpaid and I’m only 8 months into my first ever job but I’m walking out because the pay isn’t enough

You all are only supporting this when it doesn’t affect you

How would anyone feel when we no longer have a national health service and they have an emergency? When they have cancer and treatment is unaffordable? This forum, and many others, have been filled with people who can't manage the cost of living increase and had to choose between heating and rent, work or childcare. How do you think those people would afford private healthcare when the NHS can't recruit because the wages and conditions remain as they are?

forcedgeneric · 25/02/2023 22:38

Snippit · 25/02/2023 18:16

I’m fed up of these public sector workers continuously calling for strikes, holding the government to ransom and causing the public chaos throughout.

They have bloody good guaranteed pensions, (I had mine stolen working in the private sector) union support, good annual leave, paid sick leave etc.

if I’ve been dissatisfied with a job choice I’ve moved on to another.

I have no patience for them, let them work in the private sector, we’re all struggling and suffering to different degrees. Everyone’s salaries have decreased in real terms, but they have to suck it up and try to deal with it the best they can.

Most healthcare public sector workers are well aware they could earn more in the private sector, it is part of the reason for the staffing crisis - wages and conditions are better outside of the NHS, especially for those healthcare professions whose role is suited to private independent practice. If your role in the private sector doesn't command the salary you think it deserves, that is a very different issue. As a healthcare professional, my earnings and work-life balance would be greatly improved by working outwith the NHS. I have chosen to stay because it is in line with my values but I don't and won't judge those who leave.

Newcatbrowntail · 25/02/2023 22:41

How come locums are on your training programme?

Lapland123 · 25/02/2023 22:41

Fissty

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say the ‘junior’ doctors are feckless tardy youngsters and also say they are vital for all those essential procedures for suffering patients.

I’m not sure what your role could be, where you seem to allow leave, but have no clinical background.

If you are in medical staffing, I’ve fortunately never met anyone like you in my career. On the contrary, the medical staffing managers I have encountered have been excellent and I cannot imagine them thinking as you do

forcedgeneric · 25/02/2023 22:42

fissty · 25/02/2023 15:11

Ha yes I was having breakfast - late night working!

I think we need some clarity on 'appalling pay and conditions', and I don't mean in comparison to other jobs (it isn't a race to the bottom). I mean what are the details of these appalling pay and conditions.

Anyone commenting on these strikes should really read the junior doctor contract and working time regulations first.

  1. The vast and I mean VAST majority of FY1's have never held a job before. Never worked in a paid position. It is a shock to them when they find themselves suddenly in a 48 hr a week position. It is a physically demanding hard job, in the main they are very very unprepared for this.
  2. The working time directive for junior doctors works allows for a maximum 48hr a week rota. All rotas go through compliance software and are monitored by 'safe working guardians' at each trust. This includes their rest days, off days and maximum working hours. Any doctor who works 15 mins over the end of their shift should (and does) put in an exception report, as a manager I have to then either pay them for this time OR give them time off in lieu (their choice). If they choose TOIL this has to be given within 2 weeks even if it leaves the ward under safe staffing levels. There are very strict rules on how many nights a doctor can work in a row (4), how many weekends they can work (1 in 3), how long their shifts can be and how many rest days they need before AND after on call shifts.
  3. FY1 doctors will tell you themselves they are there for TRAINING not SERVICE PROVISION. Same as FY2's. They are paid in accordance to that. After their first two training years their salary is circa £44000. They are still firmly in training at this point. Their core or specialty training is 51-58k. At this point they are still in training. Why do I mention this? Because I cannot tell you how many mistakes and errors these doctors make (because they are STILL TRAINING). These are not people 20 years into their career with no further pay progression.

There is a palpable feeling amongst these doctors that 'they could have been anything' and we are beholden to them because they chose to be doctors and not lawyers or finance bros. But they did choose to be doctors, with the full knowledge that the training takes a good 15 years to complete. If they wish to exit the training programme they can go and be full time locums, I employ a number of them, they earn very good money but accept they are not going to get the training the 'programme' doctors do.

Most FY1 and Fy2 doctors, and those who work with them, would disagree that they are primarily there for training and not service provision. That's how it SHOULD be, so we have a future workforce. If you are right, I'm sure the strike will have minimal impact ......

Shortkiwi · 25/02/2023 23:06

FY1 and F2 doctors will tell you they SHOULD be there for training but are in fact are there for service provision. If, as said previously, they are only there for training then they won’t be missed in the strikes. My FY2 DD in A&E atm would have a different perspective - every week she is being asked to change shifts or do extra as things are so desperate. She also regularly gets A/L requests turned down including my birthday this weekend.

Coffeewinecake · 25/02/2023 23:36

lookluv · 25/02/2023 19:57

shortkiwi - not all but a significant number do turn up late, call in sick when due to work a weekend.
Calling them out onbeing late is considered by those that do to be harssment. If you had time to get your costa and arrive 10 mins late, then you do not have your priorities right and ye you could have been on time without the coffee. Sorry had a gutfull this week of people swanning in late tos tart clinic, ward rounds etc whilst holding their coffee and croissant

Ah yes, swanning in late with a coffee and croissant - I have done that because there is (1) I have been at work since 7am even though I start officially at 8.30 (2) I do various clinical duties and patient related admin (3) no staff canteen and the queue is very slow and very long but I need to buy a drink and something to eat becaus (3) clinic is double booked, it starts at 11am and I won’t finish until 5pm, sometimes after and there is no break.
My only break since 7am would have been when I stood in the queue for an overpriced coffee and croissant as I had not time to actually buy a proper lunch, let alone sit and eat it.
The staff canteen has been removed from the hospital, along with staff coffees, teas, parking, beds for night shifts.

lookluv · 25/02/2023 23:43

fisty - I get your points. Not all are bad and most play the professional adult game but some do not.

I think there has been a little bit of exaggeration from some of the children of some of the posters because FY2s and CT1s would not be doing chest drains on their own etc

Behaviours have deteriorated and sticking to the rules on leave seem to get ahrder - if you are the last to ask for the most popular week of the year 0 it rightly gets refused.Get organised and book ahead - this is not unique to medicine

Most junior doctors are great , like everywhere some are not. The hours are nowhere near what they used to be and rightly so - they were awful but too many of the juniors think 48 hr per week maybe going to 55 is a lot. For those of us a little older we gave up clock watching many years ago - we go when the job is done and handed over to someone else. Hence why I am still at work on a Saturday because two of my junior team failed to come in today.

TurquoiseDress · 26/02/2023 00:32

mbosnz · 25/02/2023 18:53

Doesn't 'junior doctor' pretty much cover anyone who is not a consultant?

Yes that's it in a nutshell Smile