Would you support a junior doctor strike?

[NC3435]

NC for this. To be clear, during the last strike, non training grade doctors were in hospitals etc as were consultants. Emergency work continued and A+E was functioning. The background to the dispute is that JDs want pay restoration to the levels in 2008/09 and the BMA has been attempting to engage with the government for a while without any acknowledgement. There is a staffing and retention crisis with more and more doctors leaving the country every year. Those of us still around are pretty burnt out from the last 2 years and things are getting worse - this includes patient care.

Can’t bear people who oppose strikers because “they’re much better paid than me, what are they moaning about?” Get a better job or join a bloody union then!

Full support from this regular patient.

Full support from me.

Yes I support the Junior Doctors strike, and anyone in healthcare, teaching etc.
The last thing we need is the attitude of "Don't like it then go elsewhere" where healthcare, education and public services are concerned - why on earth would anyone support pushing people out of a profession that we rely upon for our health and wellbeing?
That attitude is part of the reason we have shortages in these areas, which reduces conditions and increases work loads for those left and yet people are determined to push more people out rather than value them?
It all strikes me (no pun intended!) As a bit "Put up and shut up because we need you but you're not supposed to realise that" well they have (as have many others) and have had enough of being used to support society at their own cost.

Ah but everyone clapped for us 😊. We were useful and important then.

Maybe we could reintroduce the clapping on a Thursday night and that'll mean that all the issues disappear (rather than the HCPs we're losing so many of)? 😉
It was such an empty gesture really, designed to show our 'appreciation' without having to actually do anything. Lip service.

Support here. For both jnr medics and the consultant teams. June so those not consultant/ GP practically run the hospital day to day and from day one carry alot of responsibility for life changing decisions. Consultants because they keep having to retire due to the mad pension scheme issues. Yes it's a vocation but unfortunately that doesn't pay the bills or keep staff both of which we are very short of.

Complete and utter support here, for all the strikers, but especially the nurses, the doctors and the junior doctors (and the teachers). The opposite of - 'if you don't like the pay and conditions then go elsewhere', is 'we really need you to stay here, so we need to (and will) give you pay and conditions that make you feel safe and valued, and want to stay.

Ha yes I was having breakfast - late night working!

I think we need some clarity on 'appalling pay and conditions', and I don't mean in comparison to other jobs (it isn't a race to the bottom). I mean what are the details of these appalling pay and conditions.

Anyone commenting on these strikes should really read the junior doctor contract and working time regulations first.

1. The vast and I mean VAST majority of FY1's have never held a job before. Never worked in a paid position. It is a shock to them when they find themselves suddenly in a 48 hr a week position. It is a physically demanding hard job, in the main they are very very unprepared for this.
2. The working time directive for junior doctors works allows for a maximum 48hr a week rota. All rotas go through compliance software and are monitored by 'safe working guardians' at each trust. This includes their rest days, off days and maximum working hours. Any doctor who works 15 mins over the end of their shift should (and does) put in an exception report, as a manager I have to then either pay them for this time OR give them time off in lieu (their choice). If they choose TOIL this has to be given within 2 weeks even if it leaves the ward under safe staffing levels. There are very strict rules on how many nights a doctor can work in a row (4), how many weekends they can work (1 in 3), how long their shifts can be and how many rest days they need before AND after on call shifts.
3. FY1 doctors will tell you themselves they are there for TRAINING not SERVICE PROVISION. Same as FY2's. They are paid in accordance to that. After their first two training years their salary is circa £44000. They are still firmly in training at this point. Their core or specialty training is 51-58k. At this point they are still in training. Why do I mention this? Because I cannot tell you how many mistakes and errors these doctors make (because they are STILL TRAINING). These are not people 20 years into their career with no further pay progression.

There is a palpable feeling amongst these doctors that 'they could have been anything' and we are beholden to them because they chose to be doctors and not lawyers or finance bros. But they did choose to be doctors, with the full knowledge that the training takes a good 15 years to complete. If they wish to exit the training programme they can go and be full time locums, I employ a number of them, they earn very good money but accept they are not going to get the training the 'programme' doctors do.

@fissty do you seriously work in the NHS. My DD has worked since she was 16, in a supermarket stacking shelves and as an HCA. How dare you say most F Drs haven't worked - loads worked during covid on wards, cleaning, as porters and as HCAs. I don't know any of DDs friends who didn't.
They have had their training disrupted by covid and v often walk on to wards to be trained, only to be told they'll have to just get in with it. As there are not enough staff. If they make mistakes then maybe their seniors should be supporting them more. But they can't as there are not enough staff.
If you really work in the NHS maybe open your eyes a bit more. No wonder they are leaving !

You have the experience of your own daughter and her friends - I have 20 odd years of working in the NHS directly with juniors everyday.

”Worked during covid” - so did everyone who wasn’t furloughed, are we all still harking on about this. I push beds and answer phones and 50 other things which aren’t my job.

Your daughter must be more than an F2 for her to have worked through the covid waves? Or do you mean she volunteered?

I 100% support junior doctors striking.

@fissty what do you propose doing in 5 years time when all the junior doctors have realised they could work less for more pay in any other profession? Your attitude is incredibly short sighted.

Do you really believe that? You think they could “earn more in any profession?” 40-50k after 3 years? Whilst still being trained?

The training sounds an awful lot like being thrown in the deep end, and both they and the patients either sink, or they swim.

@fissty no, she worked, as I said, as an HCA. Full time in ICU. Paid minimum wage doing 13 hour shifts. Day after day. Night after night. As a 19/20 year old. As did many many other students. And many graduated early, missing out on training to help out. Students have to work to get money, unless they are rich. You must have only met those ones.
I despair that you work with doctors and can not see his badly they are treated. I assume you chose where you live ? They can't.

@LibrariansGiveUsPower they will still be doctors. Just not in the UK. W Australia is offering F2 £80,000 a year, guaranteed speciality training and moving costs. Why wouldn't you ?

'Do you really believe that? You think they could “earn more in any profession?” 40-50k after 3 years? Whilst still being trained'

Being Trained. As in given the bleep to manage various wards overnight ? Being the Dr who intubates a child, or puts in a chest tube ? 3 years after graduating, after 8 years of study, they should be a ST1. They are training until they are a consultant, but they still will often be the most senior doctor there. They'd earn more working for Aldi straight out of Uni.

Language is the problem here I have friends who think medical students are higher up than junior doctors because they are still being trained.
also , it’s not a race to the bottom

Yes and do you know how many go and then come back within 18 months? Cost of living is sky high, they don’t have the protection of the BMA contract working hours and more importantly they are OUT of training - and work like locums - they don’t have the training protection they do in the uk

Totally support them. They deserve to be paid properly

I just can’t believe this government are letting them go on strike without at least trying to talk with them. Seems to have been buried in the news headlines

No I mean trained - 27 full study leave days a year. Self development time built into their rotas, off the wards for training from consultants and visiting lecturers. Mandated theatre time and clinic time. Skill workshops on the robots. Training.

They’d earn more in Aldi - I hate this argument. You must see how false this is? It’s a complete red herring because they have huge pay progression. Do they have that in Aldi?

Yes the Aldi grad scheme is 44k (with BMW 6 series company car) and increases by 11K each year up to 88k

only 3 years of uni compared to 6+ so less student debt

they can then move up to director which is 100k+ …..

Yes. Working hours and conditions are ridiculous.