What do you count as a 'professional' job?

[Llamapalma]

My DSis and I have been arguing this tonight.

What in your opinion counts as a 'professional' job?

Certain wage? Anyone who works in an office? Anyone who has to dress smart? Certain job titles?

Belonging to a profession. A role which requires prolonged training, a formal qualification and registration with a professional body.
After 5 years of university training in total, countless hours of CPD and significant professional responsibility, really irritating to have posts asserting that Nursing doesn't count. I can assure you it does.

really irritating to have posts asserting that Nursing doesn't count. I can assure you it does.

The ONS agrees with you. I found a handy website where you can easily find the SOC code for all sorts of jobs. Those starting with a 2 are all officially 'Professional occupations'.

careersmart.org.uk/occupations/nurses

I wouldn’t say a research scientist is a professional.

I agree. I used to be a research scientist: PhD, international reputation, etc. I wasn't a member of a profession. If I had committed research fraud I would probably have lost my job but it wouldn't have prevented me getting another because there's no professional register.

The ONS doesn't agree with you though. Being classified as 'a professional' is not officially defined by belonging to a professional body, it's evidently mostly about the type of role and education level.

The question the OP asked was "What do you count as a 'professional' job?", not "What officially counts as a 'professional' job?"

I'm a university lecturer (no longer research-active, hence why I said I used to be a research scientist). I have never considered myself to be a member of a profession.

Apologies, as I haven't read the whole thread, so posted the link as I thought some of the descriptions seemed odd.

It seems I'm a professional but not that I'm particularly bothered. But then I'm not bothered about job titles either. Skivvy suits me fine!

Sure. And my answer is that the ONS definitions (which are aligned with international standards) seem appropriate to the 21st century. If the OP and her DH haven't settled their argument, I'd suggest they defer to the expert authority.

Nurses are professionals, but I understand why so many on here don't class them as such. The entry requirements are low, to do nursing at my local uni, with a foundation year you don't even need GCSEs . . it is not known for being one of the more difficult degrees academically.

But surely that's irrelevant.

I could consider anyone a professional but that's pretty pointless if we're just going to make it up.

We can think whatever we like but at some point, reality is going to determine whether you're right or wrong.

This seems a bit unnecessary. Can you see why it might feel like you are being deliberately denigrating towards an entire body of professionals? Have you completed Nurse training yourself?

Nurses complete significant academic training alongside working long and stressful hours on placement. We have to revalidate (I.e provide a significant amount of evidence of CPD, practice feedback and written reflections) every three years. We pay to be registered with a professional body, and adhere to a professional code of conduct.
Many of us have additional post registration qualifications at masters level.

We are professionals, and it is hurtful to have that challenged. Apologies for being super waspy about it though 😣

Have you completed a degree in nursing? Can you back up your claims that it’s an easier degree academically?

Whether you do the foundation year or not, you need to demonstrate a certain level of academic ability to progress to the degree level course. My degree required A levels at A/A/B for example.

As well as the academic course (which is full time for 3 years) you have to complete a significant number of practice hours alongside it, otherwise you cannot enter the register.

Medic here!
Most of the nurses I have ever worked with are truly professional. They are often really undervalued by the medical profession and under appreciated by the public they treat.
More value and respect needed.
Nurses are medical professionals

I feel the same. It’s frustrating! My nursing degree was one of the most mentally and physically challenging experiences of my life, it was in no way easy. I have a previous undergrad degree which was a walk in the park but funnily enough, more respected 🙄

This thread is conflating working in a professional role and working in one of the seven professions, ( doctor, lawyer etc…). The professions are not superior to other occupations just historically defined as the professional roles. They require a higher level education, qualifications beyond this and audited CPD BUT, in current times, so do many other jobs. I think it is fair to say that nursing and teaching are professional roles but not professions.

My nursing degree was so draining!!!

I certainly don’t have long summer breaks and just a few lectures a day like some (not all) degree courses.

My degree lasted about 45 weeks of the year and as well as doing all the required academic studies we are expected to work 40 hour weeks, 13 hour shifts, nights and weekends. And as well as doing the assignments and exams alongside that, we also had to complete really complex competency booklets for each placements and the work required for that too (many reflective essays).

Some of my Uni days meant attending classes that ran from 10am through to 19.30pm.

It was absolutely gruelling.

And then when you finally get your qualification you are registered with a professional body and have to do annual CPD as well as go through a rigorous re-accreditation process every 3 years to maintain our registration and remain on the nursing register….which we have to pay for every year. We are professionally accountable for everything we do and can be struck off the nursing registrar if we do anything that compromises our professional status.

As has been said, nurses have so much more responsibility, qualifications and autonomy now compared to how it used to be and the old view of ‘nursing’ is so out of date.

Many of us do post-graduate training at Masters Level and when you get to the role of a Specialist Nurse they work at Bands 7 and 8 and work very independently of doctors.

Nursing is absolutely a profession but sadly the antiquated stereotypes of what a nurse is or what a nurse does prevents that from being acknowledged.

We will forever be known as just the doctors skivvies who do nothing but give bed baths, change dressings and fluff pillows. I’m not saying these things are not important, and providing basic care is incredibly important to all nurses but we are so, so much more than that.

Disagree about the qualifications- publishing is a profession which doesn’t have official qualifications as such. It’s full of people with English degrees…

The world has moved on.
The working world and the labour market develops and changes over time. We no longer have such a narrow definition of 'profession'.

I think it was highlighted earlier but the list of traditional professions consists of jobs which were (are??) considered elitist and were predominantly carried out by white, middle class men.

We now recognise other roles as professions, and rightly so.

@TheMoops i agree. Plus the fact that the old narrow definition of a profession doesn’t include a university professor (despite it being basically the same word from the same root) shows how ridiculous it is!

And on your point about professions often being ‘white middle class male jobs’ it’s very interesting that there’s been so much debate on this thread about nursing. A career which is female dominated, less ‘middle class’ than some other careers, and has a high proportion of non white people in it, many born overseas.

It does make me wonder whether if nursing were instead dominated by 50 year old white men called Chris and John it would suddenly be deemed to be ‘a profession’ by those denying that it is on this thread!

Agree @TheMoops and @EugeneLevysEyebrow - very definitely a throwback to times when only the white, middle class men (preferably privately educated) did those jobs. Nursing and teaching (esp at primary level) are predominantly done by women, so there’s still mindset amongst some that they can’t possibly be professions.

It does make me wonder whether if nursing were instead dominated by 50 year old white men called Chris and John it would suddenly be deemed to be ‘a profession’ by those denying that it is on this thread!

I genuinely believe it would! We already know that when a previously female dominated profession becomes more 'male' we see salaries rise! It would make sense that the perception of the job would change too.

The point about a university professor is true too. If a profession requires you to be an expert then a professor is the very definition of that!

Nail. On. The. Head.

Nursing needs to change significantly and anyone who calls themselves a nurse should be absolutely committed to basic nursing care. Thats where it starts. Historically it used to be covered by state enrolled nurses. SRN's did more complex work and everyone knew who was who. The two roles should never have been combined.

There needs to be absolute clarity about who is who and it needs to be made clear to every single patient. At my local hospital there are people in: pale blue, dark blue, a pattern, red, scrubs, etc. I think the dark blues as sisters.

I'd like to see something like:

Patterned top and apron: health care assistant
Green top or dress: student on placement
Pale blue top or dress: Junior nurse
Dark blue top or dress: staff nurse or sister
Red top or dress: matron

How one identifies the nurse practitioners, etc, goodness knows but any profession or vocation will be defined by its weakest link and this is what has happened in the UK.

I'm not sure the SEN/SRN roles are combined? These days, the basic care work is far more likely to be carried out by a HCA.