What do you count as a 'professional' job?

[Llamapalma]

My DSis and I have been arguing this tonight.

What in your opinion counts as a 'professional' job?

Certain wage? Anyone who works in an office? Anyone who has to dress smart? Certain job titles?

Traditionally & historically, it only covers the army, the church and the law.
Most people would add being a doctor, surgeon or dentist. Also, anything "chartered", eg engineer, accountant, architect, surveyor, plus teacher, senior nurse, high-level police officer.

So rosesandhellebores why are accountants up there in the ‘proper professions’ and not teachers? Both require a level 7 qualification.

And why does having recognised roles at a lower level within that profession detract from it? Finance & law, as well as nurses and social workers have unqualified roles. And indeed there are junior doctors.

I think maybe you are an acccountant….

I think the traditional 7 were: lawyer, architect, doctor, vet, accountant, dentist and engineer. Teaching was a semi profession along with other regulated roles requiring a degree. I don’t think nursing was included as it didn’t always require a degree to enter it. It seems it’s all outmoded and many other jobs attract equal status or money. The term professional is used about just about every job there is now too!

How do you quantity a 'careers advisor' as a profession?

Imo it's definitely not.

(Trying not to sound like that's a put down. I don't believe a profession is 'better' than a trade for eg)

It definitely is a profession.

I have a postgraduate qualification in Career Guidance which includes professional accreditation awarded by a registered professional body ( in addition to my MA I had to submit additional evidence of significant professional practice to my professional body to be awarded the professional accreditation)

My qualifications allow me to be listed on a professional register of careers advisers. Inclusion on this list requires a commitment to a certain number of hours CPD each year.

I'm a member of a professional body (The Career Development Institute) and part of my membership is an agreement to adhere to an approved Code of Ethics.

In order for schools and colleges to meet their statutory duties with regards careers guidance they must ensure that their students have access to a professionally qualified careers adviser who is qualified to a minimum level 6 (degree level) with level 7 ( postgraduate level) considered the 'gold standard'

So yes, it's a profession.

Sorry no, careers advisor is not a profession.

I can't think of anyone who'd ever take that job title seriously.

None taken 🙄

What a dickish comment to make.

I can't think of anyone who'd ever take that job title seriously.

And lots of people take it seriously. I know of careers consultants working at universities earning £50k+!
Not bad for a job nobody takes seriously 😂😂

The National Careers Service say you only need 2 GCSEs to become a careers advisor

Entry requirements
There are no set entry requirements but it may help you to get in if you have:

2 or more GCSEs at grades 9 to 4 (A to C), or equivalent, including English and maths

Not a profession. It's a very unique expertise but not a profession x

🤷‍♀️ I know recruiters on £60k

Still not a profession. No matter what the salary is

Sorry!

Primary teaching did not traditionally require a degree. Historically they trained in the classroom, then teacher training colleges were set up.
An older relative of mine did her teacher training in the 1970s and she doesn't have a degree

There is a huge problem re nursing in my opinion. Far too many healthcare assistants wearing a dress like a nurse's dress who are referred to as nurses. At my GP practice the Dr's refer to the HCA's as nurse appointments. It really has to stop.

Yeah the National Careers Service doesn't have a great reputation.
They notoriously only employ careers advisers with level 2/4 qualifications so they don't have to pay them high wages! Those level of qualifications are there to act as stepping stones to a L6 or L7.

The government statutory guidance to schools and colleges make it clear that a professionally qualified careers adviser should be qualified to at least L6 and to work at a university you need L7.
To be on the professional register you need to be qualified to L6.

The problem is that similar to some other professions careers adviser isn't a protect job title. The professional body is working on making it a chartered profession which will make a difference but it is a long process.

It's funny how people let their preconceptions of a job influence them. PP have made long lists of what they consider makes something a profession and careers adviser meets most of those requirements ( more do than teaching and nursing! ) yet people are insistent it's not a profession.

I'm now a senior academic and actually teach a professional postgraduate qualification in career guidance - this will be a debate for my students next week!

This has maybe been said already but Scottish teachers absolutely do - the GTCS.

My mother in law was a primary deputy head. She did not have a degree. She did a two year teaching certificate in the 50s, at teacher training college. Now Homerton Cambridge. Having said that she is far better educated than most of the primary teachers with degrees and post grad quals than many I have come across. She also managed the children well.

I could set up a careers advice business tomorrow and market myself as a careers advisor! No one would stop me and if anyone felt I'd given poor advice, they'd have no one to complain to.

So I'm not convinced. But great salary!

The reference to salary was about taking it seriously.

It's a profession because:

• it requires a professionally accredited qualification
• it has a professional body and professional register
• it had an established code of ethics
• the government insist that schools have access to professionally qualified careers advisers.

Im classed as professional, spent years training, qualifications ect and im regulated.

However I know some women who are highly skilled in their businesses and have an excellent reputation - I would absolutely class these women as professionals.

I would also class tradesmen that I know who have been operating for DECADES and REALLY know there shit. In fact I would be totally fucked if they wouldn't have come and sorted stuff out for me. They are professional trades men/women who keep society afloat.

People confuse wearing a suit to work as being professional - I know plenty of people that wear a suit to work and they know shit.

Yes you could, but you could do that with a lot of other professions too.
Just because a job title isn't protected doesn't mean it isn't a profession.

You could set up a baby scanning clinic with no qualifications in radiography or sonography because sonographer isn't a protected job title either.

You couldn't get a job in a school as a careers adviser as that would mean they weren't meeting the statutory requirements.
A university might employ you if you had lots of experience but they'd expect you to complete a postgraduate qualification almost immediately.

But your ultrasound clinic would have to be registered with the CQC.

The National Careers Service say you only need 2 GCSEs to become a careers advisor

Off topic but if you do want information on jobs don't use the National Careers Service website. It's shit....careers advisers don't use it. It's written by people with naff all knowledge about careers.

We use Prospects- it's much better. Their information on how to become a careers adviser is more accurate.

A job that may require you to act in a way that your boss may not want you to?

As a chartered management accountant I am obliged to adhere to professional accounting standards, whereas I have had bosses who want their whole personal lives expensed through the business..

I'm paraphrasing a bit, but sometimes professions can put you into personal hot, or at least warm, water.

Yeah but still doesn't mean the people running the clinic and scanning women are qualified and doing a good job.
I know about this personally and there are clinics out there doing really poor quality (and borderline dangerous) scans and their still operating.

There are lots of professions where job titles aren't protected and people are working while unqualified and unregulated.

Does that mean those that hold professional qualifications and are regulated can't call themselves a professional?

My child goes to a tutor. We have chosen a tutor who is a qualified teacher but there are lots of people out there doing the same job but with no teaching qualifications. Does that mean our tutor can't call herself a professional even though she's a qualified teacher?

I've just checked Prospects.

And the page on Architect isn't correct. Siiiiigh

Well thanks for the insight, Moops. I can now see why it was virtually impossible to get the the right candidates for the graduate roles at my last firm...
🥺

The Prospects page on Land Surveyor is wrong as well. 😔

Report any inaccuracies. They're responsive to feedback.

I'm not sure what you mean by your last point? Is that another dig?