Looks like a junior doctors strike is coming. Reasonable or unreasonable?

[Erica56]

www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/junior-doctors-pay-scales/fair-pay-for-junior-doctors-in-england

[Shinyhappyperson22]

I work in the NHS and support anyone that voted/votes to strike. It is shit and has just got worse and worse. Less staff, more workloads, huge waits, extra shifts. It is already UNSAFE for patients. I’m always on at my dad to take his meds and be careful etc because I would not want him in a hospital right now.

There is always money for other things like high pay tax cuts but not for public services which are all now run into the ground. Enough. We’ve had years of this shit and it just gets worse.

[thebabessavedme]

I have spent most of the last 24hours in an assement ward with my elderly mother - NOTHING would induce me to work in any part of the NHS, I cannot describe the chaos (this is after I was told I was looking at a 6 hour wait for an ambulance for dm who was collapsed on a car park floor) I have had to change my DMs incontinance knickers, wash her, make her comfy etc, the staff were like blue arsed flies they were so busy, the beds were not cooling down from one patient to the next the turn over was so quick. Yet despite everything, everyone who treated my dm was professional, kind, caring and respectful. I would like to thank all the staff because frankly I think I would have stood in the middle of the ward and cried if I was being asked to work like this. Please do what you feel you must to improve conditions, not only for junior doctors but all staff, this cannot go on, this is just a snapshot of one old lady's care, if that includes striking then so be it!

[noblegiraffe]

@missbipolar

How does this work in practice? Like if there's zero Jr doctors then surely this puts patients and risk? Especially given the current nursing situation as well?

Patients are already at risk.

Not striking won't improve that. Trying to emotionally blackmail the people who are holding public services together on a shoestring by suggesting that they are the ones endangering patients by having working conditions so poor that they are forced to take action is not on, IMO.

The government are responsible for the terrible conditions. If terrible conditions lead to strike action which further endangers patients then that is doubly their fault.

[CanaryShoulderedThorn]

My husband teaches A level chemistry, previously he had many children in his class go on to study medicine, now no one aspires to.

I personally know 2 medics who have given up practicing due to stress, one is now a yoga teacher and the other opened a coffee shop.

Who can blame them.

[avocadotofu]

They are paid a pittance, so they are definitely not being unreasonable!

[RitesOfSaussage]

@thebabessavedme

I have spent most of the last 24hours in an assement ward with my elderly mother - NOTHING would induce me to work in any part of the NHS, I cannot describe the chaos (this is after I was told I was looking at a 6 hour wait for an ambulance for dm who was collapsed on a car park floor) I have had to change my DMs incontinance knickers, wash her, make her comfy etc, the staff were like blue arsed flies they were so busy, the beds were not cooling down from one patient to the next the turn over was so quick. Yet despite everything, everyone who treated my dm was professional, kind, caring and respectful. I would like to thank all the staff because frankly I think I would have stood in the middle of the ward and cried if I was being asked to work like this. Please do what you feel you must to improve conditions, not only for junior doctors but all staff, this cannot go on, this is just a snapshot of one old lady's care, if that includes striking then so be it!

👏excellent post. I'm sorry about your mum's situation.

[Artemi]

I want to say a huge thank you to the messages of support, it's really touched me.

I categorically support my nurse colleagues and other public sector workers striking. We need to stand together.

When I started work, I was so tired after shifts that I would worry that I would crash the car.
Then I started wishing I would crash so I didn't have to go to work.

My best friend and colleague took her own life. Everyone knows someone.

I have PTSD from being repeatedly awoken in the middle of the night (48 hour shift) to desperately try and fail to save someone. Now I barely sleep at all,even when not on call.

I cry before work almost every day.

The NHS has broken me.

[beachcitygirl]

Very reasonable. I support them fully & in fact I support any trade union voting for strike this winter.

People working full time should not have to

a) rely on benefits
b) suffer fuel or food poverty
C) get into debt

I predict a winter of discontent & general strike

[CrustyFlake]

I fully support the strike, and I think that paramedics and nurses should strike too.

[MrsSkylerWhite]

2pinkginsplease · Yesterday 21:38
Totally support them, having just had a relative in hospital very unwell these doctors and junior doctors work their arses off. Junior doctors are over worked and underpaid and unless something is done the NHS are going to have a huge shortage of doctors to treat patients. This needs sorted to encourage more people into this profession“

hope you’re relative is doing well now.

so torn on this. My husband would have died in 2017 without the NHS intervention.

would you support action if your relative needed to go in and couldn’t because of strike action?

[Gratefulbadger]

5-6 years of uni, often >80k of debt with +6% interest, expensive GMC fees, indemnity fees, parking fees (if you can get a permit). Constant anxiety of being sued/imprisoned/GMC investigated (high suicide rate). Fear of harming/killing someone whilst trying to do your best in a completely broken system. Poor pay compared to friends of a similar / often worse academic standard. 30% pay cut over the past 10 years. I think it’d be highly unreasonable to not strike.

DOI lots of medic friends and family

[howshouldibehave]

Good to see so much support for the strikes. I hope people are as supportive with other sectors, eg teachers.

[1FootInTheRave]

I fully support my collegues in striking.

The working conditions and pay are inhumane.

[pennyfairweather]

@holidayelbow

I am going against the grain here but I don't agree with the strike.

My friend is a junior doctor. Did her F1 and F2 full time. She has two full weeks holiday in between each rotation. Whilst she was busy - she did regular hours and had time off.

She is now part time and sometimes becuase of how it works can go a whole wee k without working, and then she sometimes picks up locum shifts and gets £££££ for it.

Young lads in Afghanistan got blown up on 18k year. No one seemed to be bothered about those super low paid roles.

This seems to be an anomaly amongst all the posts from medics on here.

I absolutely support the strikes.

[Gratefulbadger]

In addition: pension been attacked twice and now essentially a tax-trap. Constant abuse in the media (daily mail). Having to move every 4-6 months during training. Being called a ‘junior doctor’ until your late 30s.

[MrsSkylerWhite]

holidayelbow · Today 07:08
I am going against the grain here but I don't agree with the strike.

My friend is a junior doctor. Did her F1 and F2 full time. She has two full weeks holiday in between each rotation. Whilst she was busy - she did regular hours and had time off.


She is now part time and sometimes becuase of how it works can go a whole wee k without working, and then she sometimes picks up locum shifts and gets £££££ for it.


Young lads in Afghanistan got blown up on 18k year. No one seemed to be bothered about those super low paid roles.“

I think anyone doubting how pressured the life of a junior doctor is ought to read/watch the TV adaptation of “This is Going To Hurt”, written by a junior doctor.

[RitesOfSaussage]

The working conditions and pay are inhumane.

And a disgrace for a so called civilised country.

[paintitallover]

When junior doctors go part time, it's mostly because part time is a full time job in most peoples judgement. They are the only people who suffer, because it takes them longer to climb the medical ladder. Nobody pays for junior doctors training on the long road to consultancy or specialist training , and they take exams for this all the time (and in their own time). The government are appalling and will lose them in droves unless they pay more.

[Spudina]

@TheNinny
“Junior Drs”includes all house office grades and Registrars. What happens is that the Consultants cover the wards and do rounds, usually performed by Registars. They will be supported by Nurses, Advanced Practitioners and other allied health professionals. As I said in another post a lot of historically Drs jobs (such as taking bloods, cannulating, inserting central lines, performing blood gases, taking biopsies, doing internal cameras) are now also performed by nurses and practitioners. We will pull together and make this safe. Or at least as safe as it is under current circumstances. Sending solidarity to my medical colleagues. We’ve got you.

[Jojojojojowhat]

Completely in support. It doesn’t need to get to the point of actually striking if the government give in and pay them fairly. But even if it does actually come to striking, the nhs coped in 2016 when this happened before.

[strawberrysea]

Completely unreasonable. I'm a nurse and wouldn't strike for the below reasons:

1. the majority of issues faced by healthcare staff currently are due to low staffing which takes years to solve, not sure how a strike will fix this
   
2. it is morally wrong to strike as a healthcare provider. Doctors specifically take an oath to 'do no harm', and I can confidently say that harm will be done in their absence
   
3. the burden on other staff (nurses, nurse practitioners, secretaries, advanced clinical practitioners etc.) in their absence will be unimaginable
   
4. medical students on placement will have their education severely disrupted
   
   They deserve better pay and working conditions but I do not believe that a strike is the best way to achieve this.

[StJeanDeVence]

What's your solution then, @strawberrysea ?

As an ex-midwife who still works closely with the NHS, I fully support the strikes.

[Pengwinn]

Young lads in Afghanistan got blown up on 18k year. No one seemed to be bothered about those super low paid roles

The military isn't really comparable. Free or heavily reduced accommodation, deployment enhancements, GYHP, quick progression in relation to the qualifications required for entry, soldiers out of trade training and on deployment wouldn't have been on 18k actual pay even if their base pay was.

I support junior doctors.

[Scatterbrainbox]

Completely reasonable.

[Spudina]

@strawberrysea I’m willing to be burdened for a couple of days if it means my colleagues get what they need and stay in the profession. I think of my worst shifts. The ones where everything went to hell and the only thing you could say was that all your patients are still breathing after your 13 hours. The ones where you didn’t feel you had time to have to eat or have bathroom breaks. What made those days slightly better was that the team supported each other and we genuinely were “all in it together”. We are nothing without each other. Support your colleagues if you want to keep them.