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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Looks like a junior doctors strike is coming. Reasonable or unreasonable?

206 replies

Erica56 · 30/09/2022 21:14

www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/junior-doctors-pay-scales/fair-pay-for-junior-doctors-in-england

OP posts:
RitesOfSaussage · 01/10/2022 08:41

sydenhamhiller · 01/10/2022 07:46

DC1 has just started at med school last week and his father and I (non medics but have medic friends) both tried to dissuade him.

Look at XXX who works in pharmaceuticals/ research/ the City. The hours they work, the bonuses. Think how aunt YYY and Uncle ZZZ’s stories (the hours, the under staffing, the mismanagement).

And that is terrible. Working in healthcare is amazing. We should have been encouraging it. But as my 16 year old rather histrionically said to dc1 ‘you’ll never make it to my wedding as a doctor’. (No wedding imminent!)

I am a primary teacher, and found that I cried 4 times on Monday. Cried nearly every day last week. Thought perhaps my age, dc1 starting at uni, me losing what marbles are left etc etc. Then at a well being staff meeting (my well being would have been enhanced being able to get my marking done), 4 other colleagues I spoke to had been crying at work that week. And they are just the ones I spoke to.

I know we are not being blown up abroad, and not as stressful as A&E, I tell myself that a lot when I feel desperate. But surely this is not right…

If anyone else in any other sector feels like this, I fully support their right to strike. And it is not a race to the bottom: agreeing that their terms and conditions are not right does not mean that others are not worse.

Thanks

I know we are not being blown up abroad, and not as stressful as A&E, I tell myself that a lot when I feel desperate. But surely this is not right…

The more teachers, doctors, nurses and other professionals feel like this there the very fabric of our society erodes. Your suffering is not an isolated case, it's how things now are for many people. Impossible targets, meaningless 'wellbeing' interventions 🤐instead of tackling and reforming what doesn't work. Each and everyone of us who is finding our professional lives increasingly stressful and impossible are a symptom of this country's failures.

I support teachers' strikes too.

RitesOfSaussage · 01/10/2022 08:41

The more teachers, doctors, nurses and other professionals feel like this the more the very fabric of our society erodes.

Foxinmygarden · 01/10/2022 08:49

floorida · 01/10/2022 08:37

What has happened to doctors t&cs over the years? I have a couple of family friends who were/are consultants & they are all extremely comfortable.

As a consultant I take home a fairly decent wage. It's the junior doctors who are struggling. Their pay simply hasn't increased in line with the cost of living and other professions. A junior doctor posted her payslip on twitter last week. I am not joking when I say that I took home exactly the same as a first year doctor in 2001. Admittedly part of this was due to the pay banding I received for antisocial hours, but it's still not right.

At the other end, many colleagues are retiring early or reducing hours because of the pension tax situation. I know people who have received 5 figure tax bills.

nameychangey6 · 01/10/2022 08:54

Junior doctor here. Really touched to see so much support.

I haven't gone into training after my foundation years. Currently, I'm limping along with enough locums to keep myself skilled but I'm not sure I'll stay. I feel a complete shell of who I was when I started medical school. So many of my colleagues have left medicine or gone abroad. The ones who have stayed all feel like I do.

Working as a junior doctor is a death by 1000 cuts. It's changing department every 4-6 months (and, within each placement, sometimes changing ward/team weekly!), it's always being new and expected to fit in and know what to do, it's a hideous bullying culture, it's anti whistleblowing, it's hours of eLearning in your own time, it's thousands of pounds in fees/exams / equipment/moving house / travel / parking, it's long long hours, it's trying to do the job of 3 people safely knowing that no one will have your back if something goes wrong, it's bearing the brunt of permanent colleagues' (and patients') frustration as you are an easy target, it's being rotaed to work your own wedding, it's coming to work to be sent home as you're needed for a night shift that night instead (and it's being very frowned upon to actually have your own life and plans outside work), it's getting home and studying for more exams, it's having to uproot your family and never being able to settle, it's sitting on a bin in meetings because there are no chairs, it's sharing one computer with 2 other doctors and 6 nurses even though you all need it to do any of your jobs, it's 14 hour shifts with nothing to eat and no time to go to the loo, it's IT never working, it's being expected to come in 30 minutes early and leave 1 hour late and being too scared to exception report, it's being completely beholden to your awful rota and job because you need your seniors to sign you off as competent and write you references, it's 80+ hour weeks (silly 17 year old me didn't realise the 48 hour working week was averaged out!), it's emotional battering with no space or time to debrief, it's watching your senior colleague's cry quietly in their offices and realising it doesn't get better, it's patients telling you you don't care when really you can't sleep for thinking about them but you don't have the resources to make things better for them and you're just fire fighting, it's watching all of your friends out-earn you, it's feeling isolated because none of your friends want to hear about your job - you're definitely lying about your pay and hours. And ultimately, it's not safe. I can't remember the last time I worked on a fully staffed rota. Mistakes happen, and things get missed - a lot flies under the radar as it gets sorted out in the end, but patient care suffers. I didn't go into training for that.

PS. To the lovely nurses on this thread, I have your back too. The NHS is sadly home to some bullies who shout very loud. But it's also full of lots of kind people. I'll always remember my first weekend (and second ever shift) - I cried in the store room whilst one nurse hugged me and then helped me plan my jobs out. When I got back to the doctor's room, another nurse had left me a pile of biscuits. I was so flustered I didn't even realise it was her first ever shift! Their kindness meant so much to me and I hope they knew that.

Theimpossiblegirl · 01/10/2022 09:01

I was just coming back to this thread to say that I hope people are seeing the support. It's refreshing. The media is not on our side.

I'm an exhausted primary teacher too. I've worked until 11 every night this week to free up a bit of time this weekend as it's my dds birthday tomorrow. I was really proud that I've 'only' got to do a few hours in the evening on Sunday.

floorida · 01/10/2022 09:02

@Foxinmygarden thank you for answering.

There seems to be a massive issue across society where younger people have seen pay not go anywhere, conditions not so favourable & life costing more. At uni I worked in a saturday job & got more the NMW today & that was decades ok. How on earth can it be fixed?

ShadowoftheFall · 01/10/2022 09:09

Agree with @BadPaintDay

JDocNC · 01/10/2022 09:35

To the poster saying that her friend had two weeks off between rotations, I’m sure she’ll have been using her AL. That is not standard at all.
What is much more likely is you’ll be rota’d on call in different hospitals miles apart whilst still being expected to attend induction. I’m not the only one who has finished a night shift in hospital A, driven an hour to hospital B, sat through a morning of useless induction (no computer log ins etc but a nice lecture on how to be more resilient or how not to set the ward microwave on fire), driven home for a couple of hours sleep then driven back to hospital B for another night shift in a specialty I’ve never worked in before and have had no specialist induction or teaching.

We have no say over our jobs geographically. I know colleagues who live away from their families in the week (at their own personal cost, we pay for hospital accommodation etc) because they’ve been allocated jobs two + hours away from home and you can’t uproot your spouse and children every year at the whims of the deanery. I know people who have moved only to be told a month before starting (when they’ve already signed a lease, husband got a new job, kids in new schools etc) that there had been a mistake and they now had to work in an entirely new location. My training scheme has decided that I need to go to a different hospital for 6 months. I currently walk to work. This new hospital is an hour and a half on public transport. We had to sell my car as we couldn’t afford to run both and my partner works a busy on call rota at a hospital an hour away. I’ll be expected to suck it up and pay for this like I pay for my indemnity insurance, my exams, my portfolio, my college membership, my GMC fees. All in all my partner and I have spent thousands this year just to be allowed to work. We have no choice in this, you don’t pay you can’t work.

The NHS is a monopoly employer. It can only run by exploiting its staff.

I’ve been in some very dark places during my career. I used to fantasise every day about how I could harm myself so I didn’t have to go back in. I’d stand by the kettle every day picking up the courage to pour the hot water over my hand in the hopes I’d get a morning off. I wouldn’t look before crossing roads in the hopes somebody would run me over.

I’ve carried three bleeps because there weren’t enough doctors. I’ve been bullied by seniors. I’ve done 12 hour shifts without eating or taking a break. I’ve been the only doctor for over 200 patients. I’ve been verbally and physically abused by patients and their relatives. I’ve had leave cancelled with one days notice. I’ve been bullied into working extra on calls (including the night before my grandma’s funeral). I’ve been consistently underpaid or worked locum shifts that then don’t get paid for 6+ months. I’ve had colleagues denied leave to go to their own wedding despite giving a years notice. I’ve worked 12+ hour shifts with a two hour round commute and then had to squeeze in some revision for my upcoming £600 exam which I have to pass in order to progress. I’ve had colleagues move across the country for a new job only to be told in an email at 4.30pm on a Friday that there’s been a mix up and they’re actually in a different hospital (never might that they’d moved house, kids had moved schools etc).
I’ve been so ill on shift that my observations were worse than some of the patients I was admitting but if I went home there was literally nobody else.
I’ve watched consultants I admire get stretched more and more thinly until they stop. And despite all this it’s not good enough. I’m not good enough. There is nothing more demoralising than running yourself into the ground mentally and physically only to spend every patient encounter apologising for this shit care you’re providing.

Conditions would be awful regardless of what we were paid but the terrible working situation combined with the (comparatively) low wage (or at least a wage that has never caught up with inflation) means that it’s becoming even less tolerable to stay. This means more are leaving (the profession, the country) which makes the whole situation worse.

The only way this makes sense is that the government are deliberately running it into the ground to make it easier to privatise.

I’m leaving. I can’t do it anymore. At times I still love it, I’ve been so privileged to be involved in some of the most impactful moments of peoples lives. When you have a good five minutes it’s the best job in the world. But I can’t remember when I last had a good five minutes. And I don’t want to be one of those doctor suicide stories.

the80sweregreat · 01/10/2022 09:38

It's the inequality that gets to me
That someone such as Zoe ball ( just an example ) can have a salary of nearly half a mil as a presenter yet she couldn't save lives or put out a fire or nurse someone after a operation or do any of the things we need. I'm sure she's lovely and maybe gives to charity and her money does trickle down the economy in other ways , but some salaries are eye watering in comparison to the ones people earn doing things we actually need to function as a society.
I'm not having a go about her, but just making the comparison to more normal jobs.
I know it's not always a fair world and is what it is, but makes me realize how poor I am to someone like her in the media who earn the mega bucks.

RitesOfSaussage · 01/10/2022 09:39

How can we support junior doctors' and teachers' strikes? is there anything tangible ordinary people can do? Other than writing letters to the MP?

floorida · 01/10/2022 09:40

Tbf to Zoe Ball, singers, footballers etc if no one was interested, didn't tune in they wouldn't get paid.

floorida · 01/10/2022 09:41

And you could argue if the industry attracts billions why shouldn't those in it get a cut?

Toohardtofindaproperusername · 01/10/2022 09:43

What's your question really about. Everyone has the right to strike, no one takes it lightly and if you had any idea of working in the NHS right now...
What's your point of view?

paintitallover · 01/10/2022 09:43

Completely reasonable and understandable.

OldManEmu · 01/10/2022 09:44

the80sweregreat · 01/10/2022 09:38

It's the inequality that gets to me
That someone such as Zoe ball ( just an example ) can have a salary of nearly half a mil as a presenter yet she couldn't save lives or put out a fire or nurse someone after a operation or do any of the things we need. I'm sure she's lovely and maybe gives to charity and her money does trickle down the economy in other ways , but some salaries are eye watering in comparison to the ones people earn doing things we actually need to function as a society.
I'm not having a go about her, but just making the comparison to more normal jobs.
I know it's not always a fair world and is what it is, but makes me realize how poor I am to someone like her in the media who earn the mega bucks.

Yep. It's the whole horrible false narrative we have in this country that the more you earn, the harder you've worked for it. If that were the case, Dr's, nurses, firefighters, teachers, armed forces, RNLI etc etc should all be millionaires.

It's the nasty party's lies that spout rubbish about the politics of envy instead of actually sorting societies ills.

Bunnyfuller · 01/10/2022 09:45

I hope everyone strikes. The wealthy are exploiting all of us average people and it needs to stop.

How uncapping bankers bonuses at the same time as looking to cut benefits is seen as an acceptable path, well, if you voted Tory I hope you’re happy. I wish you knew how few police officers there are on shift sometimes. Crime is going through the roof, and there aren’t the resources to combat it.

BelleMarionette · 01/10/2022 09:51

I just wanted to come back to say thank you for the support here. It didn't appear to be the case during the previous strikes.

To my colleagues having difficulties, hugs, and I hope you are getting the support you need, if not please pm me. I think the majority of us have been there. I have had PTSD as a result of working on the covid wards.

newyearsresolurion · 01/10/2022 10:15

Nurses next

TheHoover · 01/10/2022 10:41

Yes for sure.
The pay deal was struck under the old government and I would have said a strike was maybe 50/50. But this disastrous shit show and their hell bent desire to bring the country to economic ruin whilst leaving a handful of uber-rich sorted for millennia have swung it to a 90% possibility.

RedKitchen · 01/10/2022 10:45

Northernlurker · 30/09/2022 21:34

Well I work in the nhs and I don't think it's reasonable. Yes they are underpaid but if they aren't at work people are going to die. This is not 6 years ago, we can't absorb this safely. It's a total nightmare.

Isn’t that the point? That being underpaid and undervalued and given a fucking tea bag means people are leaving for Australia/Canada etc. That the whole clap for the NHS was deemed that people should work for free as people will die, people aren’t charities.

The U.K. is given as an example in Europe of what happens when you underfund. No waiting times other countries A&E’s.

You know doctors seriously share the £60k adverts to be a train driver??

RitesOfSaussage · 01/10/2022 10:46

Apparently the Toris don't mind increasing their own wages.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11259343/Council-free-school-meals-expenses.html

Local Tori councillors reject extra £660,000 for free school meals… minutes before approving pay boost to their OWN allowances because 'we're all affected by cost-of-living' crisis.

'It doesn't matter if you live in a cottage or a manor house, we're all affected by cost-of-living increases,' said millionaire Tory cabinet member Cllr Steve Dixon.'

How about NHS staff Cllr Steve Dixon?

One word to sum these politicians up: corrupt!

Ireolu · 01/10/2022 10:48

My husband is a consultant and is happy for them to strike. He and his senior colleagues are willing to cover on the day that those who wish to strike won't be at work. I am also a clinician and we fully support a junior doctors strike.

missbipolar · 01/10/2022 10:50

How does this work in practice? Like if there's zero Jr doctors then surely this puts patients and risk? Especially given the current nursing situation as well?

TheNinny · 01/10/2022 10:51

Nurses, admin, porters and domestics are balloted soon as well. Likely will be a yes so brace yourselves. Totally justified though 👍

TabithaTittlemouse · 01/10/2022 10:54

Northernlurker · 30/09/2022 21:34

Well I work in the nhs and I don't think it's reasonable. Yes they are underpaid but if they aren't at work people are going to die. This is not 6 years ago, we can't absorb this safely. It's a total nightmare.

As a nurse I am completely behind the junior doctors.
We have had so maybe junior doctors close to breaking, questioning why they chose this role and not being able to see a way out. Some are already completely broken. They can’t continue as they are.

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