A negative side of English culture - the politics of envy

[Endlesssummer2022]

Let me start by saying I’m English with one immigrant parent.

This is something I’ve occasionally thought about over the years.

We often get told the positives of English culture e.g fair play, loving to queue, dry sense of humour, loving animals etc but rarely acknowledge anything negative.

Envy is a huge problem here and makes all of our lives worse in so many ways because instead of trying to make things better, many of us use more energy trying to bring others down.

I believe this behaviour climaxed at the Brexit vote when a large portion of voters were fixated on bringing down ‘metropolitan elites’ aka the educated and Londoners because they perceived them to have more. All this did was make us all of our lives harder and poorer.

Many people cheer and rush to vote if they think something they don’t have will be taken away from someone else. Rather than work out how to get these things themselves, change lifestyle, make different decisions, accept not everyone can have the same, decide not to focus on what others have or don’t have, they get angry and campaign for others to have less to make themselves feel better.

Every major election win since 2016 has been built on spite and envy and as a result things get worse for all of us. It’s becoming more and more depressing that this mentality seems to be endemic. Middle class people are lumped in with the super rich who many despise and because people feel powerless to do anything about the super rich, they focus their anger on the middle class and want to bring them down a peg or two.

Envy and spite is just making our country increasingly poorer in multiple ways. The country doesn’t feel aspirational anymore. It’s making me consider whether I want to continue to bring my kids up here. Is envy a big part of the cultures of other countries?

@Thebestwaytoscareatory absolutely. People don't vote for things they think will damage their future aspirations not realising that it makes the gap wider.

Oh Jesus are you a mind reader. Marvellous how you cant read people minds.

“It is not for the lack of opportunities, but the lack of good parenting, discipline and ambition.”

Yeah this is what the middle classes love to comfort themselves with. If the chavs can’t be arsed to reign in their chippy ill-discipline then it’s their own fault they’re poor… 🙄

Which bit of being brought up on a northern WC estate, with one parent, where I used to get chased home from school and told I was going to “get my head kicked in”, makes me middle class?

I agree that there’s a politics of mean spirited and dividing people up - all to conquer them.

but I don’t believe for a second that it’s just politics of envy. Look at how the government talk about benefit claimants!!

Might suggest you edit it to "UK" rather than English. It is a UK wide problem.

I agree same here but it doesnt fit the narrative that only 'middle class' and above can do well and have nice things

Council estate in Manchester
Kicked out of school at 15 for being pregnant.

Many many years on I have my own business with kids in private school. Apparently I am middle class and had opportunities coming out my arsehole.

Seriously I have had to GRAFT and take risks for my shit

I agree same here but it doesnt fit the narrative that only 'middle class' and above can do well and have nice things

that isn't the narrative though.

**

Apparently I am middle class and had opportunities coming out my arsehole

That's how I feel too Fluff. I am from that area. I understand the comment about GRAFT too. When I lived in London I had people telling me I had the wrong accent, did my dad keep whippets, did we have a TV and did my siblings have jobs. I've moved away from my clan up north to London, lived and worked in 4 other countries and worked really hard to give my DC a good life. No one has ever given me anything.

According to MN I am entitled and privileged, should pay more tax and more VAT on my DC's private school fees and I am buying their education. Never mind that my kid worked his arse off to get his top GCSE results and deserves the grades.

I'm on here commenting, but I don't let the Tall Poppy Syndrome bring my family down. It's the Tortoise and the Hare. Whilst everyone else is whinging, I'll crack on and do what I am doing. Being from a WC background is actually a gift. It provides you with resilience and grit. You can choose to use it to your benefit or you can sit round whinging about how everyone else is stopping you from reaching your full potential. It's your choice.

There is a tendency to blame everyone else and not take responsibility

Good on you, previous poster

I read Johann Hari's book Stolen Focus about internet usage.

Bad news is read more than good. A Twitter message disagreeing with what you said will attract a response much more than an agreeing one - in fact if things agree with your views you just glance and move on.

So SM and newpapers and the BBC (really bad for this) have constant complaints and whingeing and arguing as that gets clicks.

So we believe the world is full of hard done by people when in fact that is what is being fed to us. The successful happy ones just don't get a voice.

I have adult DCs, no private schools but all went to uni and they and all their former school friends are doing very well thanks. Well paid jobs, buying their homes, their DCs in good enough schools.

So I think the premise of the thread could be based on false information.

Oddly people love to talk about inequality but not the inequality of hardworking or self sacrifice etc.
Plenty of people with little education from poor backgrounds who've made good in life.

Oddly people love to talk about inequality but not the inequality of hardworking or self sacrifice etc.

Do you honestly believe that everyone could achieve what you have if only they worked harder?

Have posted this elsewhere, but I know someone who works 7.30-2pm as a school cook, then 5-10pm in a supermarket. Earns pretty much minimum wage in both but is one of the hardest working people I know. Many low paid workers have to work longer hours than those with better paid jobs just to keep a roof over their heads - carers, delivery drivers, retail workers.

I'm a teacher and I work longer hours in the average week than any of my friends in eg HR, admin, marketing, tech. They get paid a heck of a lot more than me.

There seems to be a lot of envy on the part of those who feels they came from disadvantaged backgrounds and worked hard towards those who are poorer, on benefits, struggling and want more equality and opportunity in society.
This attitude seems to come up on this thread a lot. Perhaps envy of those who appear to work less? It's probably English in that it has roots in protestant beliefs, although there are other cultures with strong elements of protestant work ethics too.

I think the issue is people racing to the bottom. The 'stop complaining I have it worse than you' attitude. We let the super rich get away with it widening inequality if we all fight amongst ourselves. I think that's changing now though.

My main gripe is not rich people doing well, but them not recognising that not all of us are born equal. Assuming that poor people don't work as hard as they do. If you have ever worked in a dementia care home on min ward you will know what hard work is.

It is not envy Saras. It is the annoyance that your tax money is not mostly going to the NHS, education and improving our society.

People say that it is only a small percentage of people who take advantage of the system. I don't believe this. I am from up north. Growing up, most of my street was on the dole, working on the side. One of my relatives hasn't worked for 25 years and is perfectly able to do so. They recently got free solar panels, whereas we had to pay 000's for ours. I live in one of the most affluent places in the country. Here, I used to work for a well known charity that helps people with their issues and I saw countless people asking for help to access more benefits and who didn't want to work or commute to a job. I now work with many perfectly able people who keep their hours under 20 so they can claim benefits.

It is not a few people, it is rife. If everyone who could, worked and contributed, rather than milk the cow dead, our country would have so much more money to help those who need it and improve our services.

I don’t see it as rife. The problem is that you have a prejudiced mindset and then you find examples to fit that mindset.

That doesn’t change the overall premise.

overall, you’re more likely to do well in life if you’ve got a stable family background and a shit ton of family’s wealth.

Those who do well despite this are the exception, not the rule. I know as I was one of these! I had a lot of state support and dread to think where I’d be if not.

The Phrase "The Politics of Envy" was coined by Tories to try to discredit and and all Labour policies involving redistribution of wealth.
It's been used repeatedly in this context, so it is confusing the OP appears to have recast it as the negative side of voting Tory.

They recently got free solar panels, whereas we had to pay 000's for ours
What scheme gives anyone free solar panels?

Yes, envy is in other cultures too. I can talk about coubtry of my origin, India. There is a grear divide amongst regions snd communities, sometimes even in own families. People get jealous to see other people do well, even within families there are competition, sometimes even get jealous if one's kids are doing better than another within families. Of course, not everyone is like that. Perhaps people from these ethinicies in western world have not lived there long enough to experience/ observe social problems, so they always see grass as greener. In fact, there are very countries without social problems, I guess it's human nature to be selfish.

I don't agree that the negatives of English culture are overlooked, in fact I see the opposite. Reading posts on mumsnet, it seems UK/England is the worst country, society. In reality it is far from true.

Also your observation is very superficial, you say that ineqality cannot be behind voting rational as parties don't stand for equality but when you feel powerless to change your situation, you are an easy target for politicians to manipulate.

I agree a political change is needed here to stop recent deterioration of the country and its economy. I also agree that resentment towards middle class is not fair but I have only seen it on mumsnet.